LDS Bear traps

[TripletDaddy]

This is post seems uncharacteristic of you 3D. Who are these people on CUF you're referring to?

Apologies. I was speaking of "you" generically, not really to anyone here on CUF. I should have clarified (I also didn't mean to limit it only to guys). Many of the people I know personally seem to have parent issues that they project onto the Church (this topic could be a lakers-esque thread of its own). Obviously, some folks leave the Church because they have genuine (and legitimate) negative experiences or because they simply find it unfulfilling or dissatisfying. I didn't do a good job of recognizing that in my post.

Also, having been on the other side of the fence, I can also state that people are genuinely happy or unhappy, much like inside the Church. You don't need Church membership to be a happy person or a good parent. This may be a misconception in our culture.

I don't fault anyone for their decisions one way or the other and have grown close to relatives on both sides of the LDS fence.

sorry for being sloppy, scottie.

[bball3212]

I don't have a problem with the church's racist history, even though it was well behind liberal atheists on this issue. It is of greater concern that the church won't settle this issue. Yesterday's racism is bad. Today's racism is worse.

I don't really have a problem with polygamy. I have a problem with lying about polygamy. Joseph Smith was a liar and an adulterer when it comes to the issue of polygamy, and he used his position of authority to convince other women to become liars and adulterers.

I also don't have a problem with a church having a liar and an adulterer as its founder. It is of greater concern to me tha the church tries to cover this up. Yesterday's lies are bad. Today's deception is worse.


I have absolutely no problem with this. None at all. I'm mildly bothered by attempts to historically tie the Masons to the temple of Solomon. But this is more of an 'oh brother!'


Again, no problem. It is obvious to anyone who cares about historical truth that the BOA is not what JS claims it to be, but I have no problem with the idea that JS lied about this. Mullah's should be bothered by this, by I certainly don't care. IMO, if you are going to rely on the 'authority' of someone that has to make a spiritual message appeal to the masses, it will follow that there will be a circus.

No problem. Same reason as BOA.

No problem. Same as BOA.

No problem. Same as JS being a liar and an adulterer.

Please clairfy:

When you say anyone who knows about history etc. woiuld know the BOA is fabricated, are you serious? I know many LDS scholars who say other wise. And when you say see BOA for the other things, do you think those are fabricated as well?

[TripletDaddy]

In DDD's response he basically argues that folks expect too much from the church. This is essentially what I said too. People have problems with JS being a liar and an adulterer when it comes to polygamy? Well what did you expect him to do?

While your sassy and somewhat self-serving synopsis is technically accurate, I'd point out that we should expect a lot from the Church. But it doesn't seem right to expect perfection from the Church as an organization. The gap between perfection and "a lot" is different for everyone, I suppose. I am comfortable with the gap I have observed in my personally comings and goings. Which is why I stated at the onset, none of those items on the list is remotely sufficient to cause me to leave.

[RobinFinderson]

And you get offended if someone calls Bill Moyer a jackass. LOL

'Liar' and 'adulterer' are specific words with clear meaning that appropriately describe Joseph Smith with regards to polygamy. 'Jackass' is just a pejorative smear with no real meaning. While I have no problem calling JS a liar and an adulterer, I would have problems with someone calling him a jackass.

[TripletDaddy]

Quite a post. Could you tell me how you define the "church", so I can determine if I am in complete agreement with you or just mostly in agreement.

that's the rub, isn't it? Throughout my post, i use the term liberally yet define it differently. The Church could be the actual organization, it can mean our culture (but not doctrine or official policy), it can refer to the sociality of our collective membership. I use the term fairly loosely.

MOst importantly, in my final paragraph, when i declare the "Church" to be the right place for me.....I am referring to the essential core principles of salvation found in the Gospel...the things that I feel make me a better person....not the blue shirt/don't watch TV on Sundays stuff. And not really even the Book of Abraham/Prop 8 stuff, as much as I consider those things to be important. I mean it in the broadest, most accepting, least exclusive sense of the word.

[byu71]

'Liar' and 'adulterer' are specific words with clear meaning that appropriately describe Joseph Smith with regards to polygamy. 'Jackass' is just a pejorative smear with no real meaning. While I have no problem calling JS a liar and an adulterer, I would have problems with someone calling him a jackass.

OK, I decided to look up the definition of jackass. The definition doesn't really fit Moyer. Therefor I revise my statement and take it back. I should have said he is a dipshit.

[TripletDaddy]

OK, I decided to look up the definition of jackass. The definition doesn't really fit Moyer. Therefor I revise my statement and take it back. I should have said he is a dipshit.

byu71 busting out the dictionary.

be careful, lest someone call you an intellectual!

[byu71]

byu71 busting out the dictionary.

be careful, lest someone call you an intellectual!

An intellectual wouldn't have to go to the dictionary. I am still safe.

[scottie]

Please clairfy:

When you say anyone who knows about history etc. woiuld know the BOA is fabricated, are you serious? I know many LDS scholars who say other wise. And when you say see BOA for the other things, do you think those are fabricated as well?

For all of us here, please post who these scholars are and any of their publications/work.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Many of the people I know personally seem to have parent issues that they project onto the Church (this topic could be a lakers-esque thread of its own). Obviously, some folks leave the Church because they have genuine (and legitimate) negative experiences or because they simply find it unfulfilling or dissatisfying.

Also, having been on the other side of the fence, I can also state that people are genuinely happy or unhappy, much like inside the Church. You don't need Church membership to be a happy person or a good parent. This may be a misconception in our culture.

I don't fault anyone for their decisions one way or the other and have grown close to relatives on both sides of the LDS fence.

.

Thanks for this insight DDD. I personally have lived on the fringes, well within the confines and outside of the church. Ultimately, one of the determining factors for me walking away was that my life, happiness, perspective, and spirituality were constant(within reason), regardless of what my beliefs, vis-a-vie the church, were at any given time.

[TripletDaddy]

Thanks for this insight DDD. I personally have lived on the fringes, well within the confines and outside of the church. Ultimately, one of the determining factors for me walking away was that my life, happiness, perspective, and spirituality were constant(within reason), regardless of what my beliefs, vis-a-vie the church, were at any given time.

Yes, I don't doubt your experiences. and I appreciate everyone's take on this topic. Thanks to scottie for prompting me to clarify what would have been a fairly gaping hole in my original post. I re-read it and it seems like I am critiquing my CUF friends that are not active in the Church. So to all of you I apologize for that. I wasn't speaking of you, but it certainly sounded like I was speaking down at you.

[il Padrino Ute]

Given the propensity of posts/threads of this nature, I thought it would be valuable to make a hierachy of apostacizing issues. I am going to rank them in the relevance to me. Feel free to add, edit, alter to your liking.

1. Priesthood ban
1a. Polygamy
3. Masonic root of Temple ceremonies
4. BOA
5. Multiple versions of first vision
6. Seer stone and felt hat
7. BY's various doctrines(Adam-God, Blood atonement, etc)

I've stated before that if I were to ever leave the LDS chuch, it would be because of apathy. If I wanted to, I could come up with a list of many things that I'd enjoy more than going to church on a Sunday, but I can't really point to anything on your list, nor could I come up with anything that would cause me to no longer be a believer.

[Indy Coug]

Apologies. I was speaking of "you" generically, not really to anyone here on CUF. I should have clarified (I also didn't mean to limit it only to guys). Many of the people I know personally seem to have parent issues that they project onto the Church (this topic could be a lakers-esque thread of its own). Obviously, some folks leave the Church because they have genuine (and legitimate) negative experiences or because they simply find it unfulfilling or dissatisfying. I didn't do a good job of recognizing that in my post.

Also, having been on the other side of the fence, I can also state that people are genuinely happy or unhappy, much like inside the Church. You don't need Church membership to be a happy person or a good parent. This may be a misconception in our culture.

I don't fault anyone for their decisions one way or the other and have grown close to relatives on both sides of the LDS fence.

sorry for being sloppy, scottie.

I don't think all of your clarifications and caveats were necessary.

[Rosebud]

My experience apostatizing from the church was extremely different from becoming apathetic. While I definitely had some issues with some reasons expressed earlier in this thread, I really ended up apostatizing for spiritual reasons, rather than intellectual reasons. I couldn’t in good conscience continue in the church because I cared too much about doing what I ultimately felt was right inside my soul that I had to finally leave. I knew that I would break my mother’s heart, and that I would quite possibly lose friends over my choice to leave the church. I knew that I would definitely lose important social interactions and even a regular convenient opportunity for spiritual reflection by leaving the church. Things came to a head when I served as primary president in my branch. I had absolutely no favorable testimony towards the temple, rather an anti-testimony. As I would present and teach basic Mormon doctrines and teachings, I would feel queasy inside. I was someone who grew up truly believing and seeking the Holy Ghost as a companion. It was when I felt that the Holy Ghost/my conscience/my connection to divinity was giving me negative feelings or feedback in my experiences and interactions with the church and it’s teachings that I felt I had to leave.

I feel queasy about what I'm asked to teach in primary, too. I wish that we were at least honest with our most innocent and trusting audience. I'm not suggesting that we bug them about the BoA or polygamy, of course, but that we give them realistic expectations about the role God can play in their lives. I feel sorry for kids who believe that God will jump in and rescue them anytime they pray because when he doesn't they feel abandoned and unloved. Kids are a lot more sophisticated than we give them credit for....

Jarid's list of issues isn't enough to get me to leave the church, but it is enough to tell me that church PR/correlation isn't honest and that I shouldn't expect to only hear "truth" in my Sunday meetings. If I add to that to fact that I strongly disagree with the way the church's social programs are run, I'm left with remaining a member because I believe in God and am looking for a place to worship him. I wish we could discard the excess and focus on the basics. My vote (if I had one ) would be for trimming the extra fat off of the doctrine, social programs and required meetings so that church was more about Christ.

[wuapinmon]

What often keeps me going to church, in spite of the boredom I feel and poor-reception I sometimes get due to my politics (which I don't discuss at Church!), is my experience in life before I joined the Church. I remember what it was like to not be Mormon, to not have any sense of spirituality in my life, to not be able to identify with a group that shared my values (and my values have changed to conform with the group), and to be totally ensimismado and feel hollow about not being altruistic but not having any guidance really about how to stop it.

Several things that could drive me away from the Church:

1. Recommendations about political affiliation
2. Polygamy reinstated
3. Rude and prideful General Authorities
4. Wild Horses