LDS Bear traps

[beefytee]

I don't have a problem with the church's racist history, even though it was well behind liberal atheists on this issue. It is of greater concern that the church won't settle this issue. Yesterday's racism is bad. Today's racism is worse.

I don't really have a problem with polygamy. I have a problem with lying about polygamy. Joseph Smith was a liar and an adulterer when it comes to the issue of polygamy, and he used his position of authority to convince other women to become liars and adulterers.

I also don't have a problem with a church having a liar and an adulterer as its founder. It is of greater concern to me tha the church tries to cover this up. Yesterday's lies are bad. Today's deception is worse.


I have absolutely no problem with this. None at all. I'm mildly bothered by attempts to historically tie the Masons to the temple of Solomon. But this is more of an 'oh brother!'


Again, no problem. It is obvious to anyone who cares about historical truth that the BOA is not what JS claims it to be, but I have no problem with the idea that JS lied about this. Mullah's should be bothered by this, by I certainly don't care. IMO, if you are going to rely on the 'authority' of someone that has to make a spiritual message appeal to the masses, it will follow that there will be a circus.

No problem. Same reason as BOA.

No problem. Same as BOA.

No problem. Same as JS being a liar and an adulterer.

This seems to folllow the old bishop interview joke.

[Bishop] Do you having any problem with masterbation?

[Answer] No problem at all bishop. Things are going great!



It also reminds me of a real story about my MIL.

She was called to appear for jury duty and was asked if she had a problem with alcohol. She answered yes and when asked to elaborate she talked about the perils of alcohol on society.

Sure enough she was passed over and didn't have to sit on the jury.

[TripletDaddy]

I guess what you're saying here is that your devotion to the Church is so deep that these pale in comparison, but on first reading, you seem to be blowing these off like they're no big deal. I hope that's not what you think. I get concerned sometimes that we're all becoming "social" Mormons--so attached to the social programs of the Church that we don't even care if it's true anymore.

I see what you are saying, but I can assure you that I am definitely not trying to blow these things off. I agree that some (not all) are a big deal. (I don't see why anyone cares about translation through a hat instead of stones, but to each his own). I have wrestled with these issues for years. CUF is a great place to discuss concerns.

Ultimately, I have to decide whether these "big deals" get in the way of what I view to be the bigger picture.....to bring us each closer to the Savior.

The Church has skeletons in the closet. I have no problem acknowledging them. I am willing to spend about zero minutes defending or justifying them because ultimately, they don't threaten me. I enjoy talking about them as a matter of record because they are a part of our history. But, in the end, there is nothing I can do about them. I can't change the priesthood ban. I can't change polygamy. I can't change translation in a hat. I have never expected infallibility and thus far I have not been disappointed. All of you guys that were raised in this....you all seem to sound the same to me.....in one form or another, you are all bitching about your parents and your upbringing, but projecting it onto the Church. It is like you all woke up one day and got pissed off when you found out that what your parents had been telling you wasn't necessarily correct. You found out that Satan doesn't really drown missionaries per the D&C; you found out that Steve Martin isn't LDS; you found out that getting your Eagle Scout doesn't do jack squat for you in your later life; you found out that elephants and swords might have been hard to come by in South and Central America.

Unfortunately for all the rabblerousers, it isn't the Church's fault that your parents didn't teach you about the hat or that some people in your ward are judgmental a-holes. The Church has never claimed infallibility so you would all do yourselves a load of good by not expecting it. It is the best gift you can give yourself.

So in that sense, yes, I am blowing it off. I will leave the Church when I feel like it stops helping me be better person. I will leave when I feel like it is not a vehicle to strengthening my family and my marriage. I will call it quits when it becomes apparent that the Church cannot help me grow closer to the Savior. I will definitely walk out the door when the Church re-establishes official ties with the University of Utah. Since I don't expect any of that to happen, I plan on living a long and fruitful existence in the Church (as much as it pains some of you self-righteous prigs to hear that...ha!)

I feel that the Church is the right place for me. I love being a member and it brings me great happiness. I've been on the outside. It isn't as great as a lot of our resident mitch and boaners want you to believe.

I guess you can say that I am loud and proud, but not afraid to ask as many questions as I feel like asking.

I'm a Mormon!
Yes I am!
So if you want to study a Mormon
I'm a living specimen!
Maybe you think I'm just like anybody else, you see
but trust in my words, you'll quickly observe
I'm different as can be!

[beefytee]

So to flip this question, outside of TSM ordering a missle strike on the Vatican, what events or circumstances would lead any of you to disavow your current affiliation with the church?

Some of my life's past personal experiences would have to be undone.

Clarification: No I have never seen any sort of heavenly being.

[Surfah]

I see what you are saying, but I can assure you that I am definitely not trying to blow these things off. I agree that some (not all) are a big deal. (I don't see why anyone cares about translation through a hat instead of stones, but to each his own). I have wrestled with these issues for years. CUF is a great place to discuss concerns.

Ultimately, I have to decide whether these "big deals" get in the way of what I view to be the bigger picture.....to bring us each closer to the Savior.

The Church has skeletons in the closet. I have no problem acknowledging them. I am willing to spend about zero minutes defending or justifying them because ultimately, they don't threaten me. I enjoy talking about them as a matter of record because they are a part of our history. But, in the end, there is nothing I can do about them. I can't change the priesthood ban. I can't change polygamy. I can't change translation in a hat. I have never expected infallibility and thus far I have not been disappointed. All of you guys that were raised in this....you all seem to sound the same to me.....in one form or another, you are all bitching about your parents and your upbringing, but projecting it onto the Church. It is like you all woke up one day and got pissed off when you found out that what your parents had been telling you wasn't necessarily correct. You found out that Satan doesn't really drown missionaries per the D&C; you found out that Steve Martin isn't LDS; you found out that getting your Eagle Scout doesn't do jack squat for you in your later life; you found out that elephants and swords might have been hard to come by in South and Central America.

Unfortunately for all the rabblerousers, it isn't the Church's fault that your parents didn't teach you about the hat or that some people in your ward are judgmental a-holes. The Church has never claimed infallibility so you would all do yourselves a load of good by not expecting it. It is the best gift you can give yourself.

So in that sense, yes, I am blowing it off. I will leave the Church when I feel like it stops helping me be better person. I will leave when I feel like it is not a vehicle to strengthening my family and my marriage. I will call it quits when it becomes apparent that the Church cannot help me grow closer to the Savior. I will definitely walk out the door when the Church re-establishes official ties with the University of Utah. Since I don't expect any of that to happen, I plan on living a long and fruitful existence in the Church (as much as it pains some of you self-righteous prigs to hear that...ha!)

I feel that the Church is the right place for me. I love being a member and it brings me great happiness. I've been on the outside. It isn't as great as a lot of our resident mitch and boaners want you to believe.

I guess you can say that I am loud and proud, but not afraid to ask as many questions as I feel like asking.

I'm a Mormon!
Yes I am!
So if you want to study a Mormon
I'm a living specimen!
Maybe you think I'm just like anybody else, you see
but trust in my words, you'll quickly observe
I'm different as can be!

I endorse this post.

[Jarid in Cedar]

In my experience, and the thing I would fear most knowing my weaknesses, the #1 reason most people leave the church is apathy. I suppose your list depends on your definition of apostatizing, but I find in most cases people quit coming not because of one big thing they do or don't believe but many small things they grow tired of doing

Couldn't be further from reality. Apathy leads to inactivity, but rarely disbelief(unless they didn't believe in the first place). Many people who stop believing have a feeling of betrayal because they have invested much into their beliefs and have been actively involved.

Your last statement shows that in your experience there is something wrong with those who don't believe, they are not "strong" enough, "faithful" enough, "diligent" enough, "valiant" enough, "fill in the blank" enough. I find that attitude more than a little condenscending and frankly insulting.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Some of my life's past personal experiences would have to be undone.

Clarification: No I have never seen any sort of heavenly being.

LOL to your last sentence.

[Art Vandelay]

Couldn't be further from reality. Apathy leads to inactivity, but rarely disbelief(unless they didn't believe in the first place). Many people who stop believing have a feeling of betrayal because they have invested much into their beliefs and have been actively involved.

Your last statement shows that in your experience there is something wrong with those who don't believe, they are not "strong" enough, "faithful" enough, "diligent" enough, "valiant" enough, "fill in the blank" enough. I find that attitude more than a little condenscending and frankly insulting.

That is why I asked what is your definition of apostatizing (which you clarified in the above post) my response was based upon me using the general definition of apostasy (·pos·ta·sy (ə-pŏs'tə-sē) Abandonment of one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause. where does in inactivity end and apostacy begin?

In all honesty I have not dealt with a lot of "apostates" or at least not many that have shared with me their feelings for abandoning the LDS faith. I have talked with many less actives over the years and thus the basis for my opinion.

[scottie]

...
All of you guys that were raised in this....you all seem to sound the same to me.....in one form or another, you are all bitching about your parents and your upbringing, but projecting it onto the Church. It is like you all woke up one day and got pissed off when you found out that what your parents had been telling you wasn't necessarily correct. You found out that Satan doesn't really drown missionaries per the D&C; you found out that Steve Martin isn't LDS; you found out that getting your Eagle Scout doesn't do jack squat for you in your later life; you found out that elephants and swords might have been hard to come by in South and Central America.

Unfortunately for all the rabblerousers, it isn't the Church's fault that your parents didn't teach you about the hat or that some people in your ward are judgmental a-holes. The Church has never claimed infallibility so you would all do yourselves a load of good by not expecting it. It is the best gift you can give yourself.

...

This is post seems uncharacteristic of you 3D. Who are these people on CUF you're referring to?

[Jarid in Cedar]

That is why I asked what is your definition of apostatizing (which you clarified in the above post) my response was based upon me using the general definition of apostasy (·pos·ta·sy (ə-pŏs'tə-sē) Abandonment of one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause. where does in inactivity end and apostacy begin?

In all honesty I have not dealt with a lot of "apostates" or at least not many that have shared with me their feelings for abandoning the LDS faith. I have talked with many less actives over the years and thus the basis for my opinion.

Activity level has little to do with belief or apostasy. There are many believers who have not set foot in a chapel in years and there are apostates who sit every Sunday through the block, pay tithing, and even attend the temple. There many even be a few sitting in front of you this Sunday.

[faith]

My experience apostatizing from the church was extremely different from becoming apathetic. While I definitely had some issues with some reasons expressed earlier in this thread, I really ended up apostatizing for spiritual reasons, rather than intellectual reasons. I couldn’t in good conscience continue in the church because I cared too much about doing what I ultimately felt was right inside my soul that I had to finally leave. I knew that I would break my mother’s heart, and that I would quite possibly lose friends over my choice to leave the church. I knew that I would definitely lose important social interactions and even a regular convenient opportunity for spiritual reflection by leaving the church. Things came to a head when I served as primary president in my branch. I had absolutely no favorable testimony towards the temple, rather an anti-testimony. As I would present and teach basic Mormon doctrines and teachings, I would feel queasy inside. I was someone who grew up truly believing and seeking the Holy Ghost as a companion. It was when I felt that the Holy Ghost/my conscience/my connection to divinity was giving me negative feelings or feedback in my experiences and interactions with the church and it’s teachings that I felt I had to leave.

[Art Vandelay]

Activity level has little to do with belief or apostasy. There are many believers who have not set foot in a chapel in years and there are apostates who sit every Sunday through the block, pay tithing, and even attend the temple. There many even be a few sitting in front of you this Sunday.

I have about 350 people who sit in front of me every week so I'm sure you are correct. I should have limited my first response to what I fear is my biggest danger... my tendency toward apathy leading to inactivity and possibly to apostasy.

Can I have DDD represent me from now on? I like and feel similarly to his eloquent answer I like it much better than my semantically challenged ramble.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I have about 350 people who sit in front of me every week so I'm sure you are correct. I should have limited my first response to what I fear is my biggest danger... my tendency toward apathy leading to inactivity and possibly to apostasy.

Can I have DDD represent me from now on? I like and feel similarly to his eloquent answer I like it much better than my semantically challenged ramble.

My advice to you is when members want to talk to you about questions and concerns they have, don't wonder what they are/are not doing. Treat their inquiries with sincerity and genuine interest. They likely have some intrepidation and anxiety about addressing them with you, and your first reaction to them will likely affect their willingness to open up in the future.

[RobinFinderson]

I have about 350 people who sit in front of me every week so I'm sure you are correct. I should have limited my first response to what I fear is my biggest danger... my tendency toward apathy leading to inactivity and possibly to apostasy.

Can I have DDD represent me from now on? I like and feel similarly to his eloquent answer I like it much better than my semantically challenged ramble.

In DDD's response he basically argues that folks expect too much from the church. This is essentially what I said too. People have problems with JS being a liar and an adulterer when it comes to polygamy? Well what did you expect him to do?

[byu71]

I see what you are saying, but I can assure you that I am definitely not trying to blow these things off. I agree that some (not all) are a big deal. (I don't see why anyone cares about translation through a hat instead of stones, but to each his own). I have wrestled with these issues for years. CUF is a great place to discuss concerns.

Ultimately, I have to decide whether these "big deals" get in the way of what I view to be the bigger picture.....to bring us each closer to the Savior.

The Church has skeletons in the closet. I have no problem acknowledging them. I am willing to spend about zero minutes defending or justifying them because ultimately, they don't threaten me. I enjoy talking about them as a matter of record because they are a part of our history. But, in the end, there is nothing I can do about them. I can't change the priesthood ban. I can't change polygamy. I can't change translation in a hat. I have never expected infallibility and thus far I have not been disappointed. All of you guys that were raised in this....you all seem to sound the same to me.....in one form or another, you are all bitching about your parents and your upbringing, but projecting it onto the Church. It is like you all woke up one day and got pissed off when you found out that what your parents had been telling you wasn't necessarily correct. You found out that Satan doesn't really drown missionaries per the D&C; you found out that Steve Martin isn't LDS; you found out that getting your Eagle Scout doesn't do jack squat for you in your later life; you found out that elephants and swords might have been hard to come by in South and Central America.

Unfortunately for all the rabblerousers, it isn't the Church's fault that your parents didn't teach you about the hat or that some people in your ward are judgmental a-holes. The Church has never claimed infallibility so you would all do yourselves a load of good by not expecting it. It is the best gift you can give yourself.

So in that sense, yes, I am blowing it off. I will leave the Church when I feel like it stops helping me be better person. I will leave when I feel like it is not a vehicle to strengthening my family and my marriage. I will call it quits when it becomes apparent that the Church cannot help me grow closer to the Savior. I will definitely walk out the door when the Church re-establishes official ties with the University of Utah. Since I don't expect any of that to happen, I plan on living a long and fruitful existence in the Church (as much as it pains some of you self-righteous prigs to hear that...ha!)

I feel that the Church is the right place for me. I love being a member and it brings me great happiness. I've been on the outside. It isn't as great as a lot of our resident mitch and boaners want you to believe.

I guess you can say that I am loud and proud, but not afraid to ask as many questions as I feel like asking.

I'm a Mormon!
Yes I am!
So if you want to study a Mormon
I'm a living specimen!
Maybe you think I'm just like anybody else, you see
but trust in my words, you'll quickly observe
I'm different as can be!

Quite a post. Could you tell me how you define the "church", so I can determine if I am in complete agreement with you or just mostly in agreement.

[byu71]

In DDD's response he basically argues that folks expect too much from the church. This is essentially what I said too. People have problems with JS being a liar and an adulterer when it comes to polygamy? Well what did you expect him to do?

And you get offended if someone calls Bill Moyer a jackass. LOL