Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[Jeff Lebowski]

This story keeps getting worse. She told her bishop (not Bishop) in 1987 about it. His response.

Yeah, that is horrible.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't disagree with any of this. With the entire #metoo movement, everyone is guilty before proven innocent.

If there's proof, then by all punish the man as far as possible. But until then, I don't like anyone that is unfairly flayed publicly until they get their day in court.

And like someone said earlier...would I be singing a different tune if this was my daughter? Of course. But I raised my daughters to see Church leaders as men and fallible. To not be pressured to do anything that they didn't want to do. And to let us know if there was anything fishy. But I raised by girls in the 2000's, so I obviously parented them in a different way.

I look at all Church leaders the same way that I look at anyone else. They are human, they make mistakes.

I just find it ironic that so many people on CS that are anti most disciplinary councils are upset that this dude wasn't ex'd.

I'm no attorney, but isn't this all hearsay at this point?

I am against most disciplinary councils, but 100% supportive in a case like this. Good grief, you have a man using his position of power in the church to abuse young women. If that doesn't warrant a severe reaction from the church, nothing does.

[smokymountainrain]

Good question. I wonder if the transcript sheds a little light on this.

[MartyFunkhouser]

I am against most disciplinary councils, but 100% supportive in a case like this. Good grief, you have a man using his position of power in the church to abuse young women. If that doesn't warrant a severe reaction from the church, nothing does.

You either have excommunication and disciplinary counsels, or you do not have them at all. I have no skin the game, but I've traditionally been I don't see the value of them at all.

However, the LDS church has them. The LDS church does excommunicate people. What is going on now is high profile and people will look at what happens and the message it sends. Look at the recent excommunications (and assume that all of them are fully justified)

Kate Kelly - excommunicated for starting a movement asking women to be given the Priesthood. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

John Dehlin - questioning the legitimacy of the church's truth claims and maintaining a boring as hell podcast where he alleged interviews people (I wouldn't call him talking 98% of the time interviewing). He also is a pompous asshole. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

Jeremy Runnells - writing and distributing the CES letter. Also asking for donations for the CES letter. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

Denver Snuffer - started a fundamentalist movement. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

People in homosexual marriages. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

[The_Tick]

Good question. I wonder if the transcript sheds a little light on this.

[old_gregg]

not sure how a reasonable person disagrees with funks points here re excommunication.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You either have excommunication and disciplinary counsels, or you do not have them at all. I have no skin the game, but I've traditionally been I don't see the value of them at all.

However, the LDS church has them. The LDS church does excommunicate people. What is going on now is high profile and people will look at what happens and the message it sends. Look at the recent excommunications (and assume that all of them are fully justified)

Kate Kelly - excommunicated for starting a movement asking women to be given the Priesthood. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

John Dehlin - questioning the legitimacy of the church's truth claims and maintaining a boring as hell podcast where he alleged interviews people (I wouldn't call him talking 98% of the time interviewing). He also is a pompous asshole. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

Jeremy Runnells - writing and distributing the CES letter. Also asking for donations for the CES letter. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

Denver Snuffer - started a fundamentalist movement. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

People in homosexual marriages. Using a position of authority in the church to groom and have sexual contact with women is worse.

Yep.

[jay santos]

not sure how a reasonable person disagrees with funks points here re excommunication.

I disagree.

I don't think excommunication should be on the table for anything sin/weakness related. I think that implies a doctrinal position of works and worthiness that I don't like. Whether you murdered someone or raped or cut someone off in traffic, we are all sinners.

On apostasy related items, I can understand how the Church needs to make a boundary when people like Denver Snuffer are leading people away from the church or like John Dehlin or Jeremy Runnels where they are antagonizing the Church in a highly critical way and with intent to harm the church.

I don't think I ever like excommunication at all. But I kind of understand this apostasy related reason. It's not their sins are more serious, it's just a different thing that needs to be addressed differently. Plus, it's kind of anti-Mormony (looking at you, funk, John Dehlin, etc) to imply that it's simply a comparison over which sins are more severe, when you know that's not really what the church is doing.

It's kind of like this. If you bring someone in and say what you're doing is wrong. If they say no it's not, and I won't change. Then maybe excommunication is on the table. If they say yes I know it's wrong, I'm trying, but I'm weak. Then I think maybe they don't get excommunicated. Ever, no matter how serious the sin.

[Pelado]

I don't disagree with any of this. With the entire #metoo movement, everyone is guilty before proven innocent.

If there's proof, then by all punish the man as far as possible. But until then, I don't like anyone that is unfairly flayed publicly until they get their day in court.

And like someone said earlier...would I be singing a different tune if this was my daughter? Of course. But I raised my daughters to see Church leaders as men and fallible. To not be pressured to do anything that they didn't want to do. And to let us know if there was anything fishy. But I raised by girls in the 2000's, so I obviously parented them in a different way.

I look at all Church leaders the same way that I look at anyone else. They are human, they make mistakes.

I just find it ironic that so many people on CS that are anti most disciplinary councils are upset that this dude wasn't ex'd.

I'm no attorney, but isn't this all hearsay at this point?

not sure how a reasonable person disagrees with funks points here re excommunication.

og agreeing with mp?

[old_gregg]

I disagree.

I don't think excommunication should be on the table for anything sin/weakness related. I think that implies a doctrinal position of works and worthiness that I don't like. Whether you murdered someone or raped or cut someone off in traffic, we are all sinners.

On apostasy related items, I can understand how the Church needs to make a boundary when people like Denver Snuffer are leading people away from the church or like John Dehlin or Jeremy Runnels where they are antagonizing the Church in a highly critical way and with intent to harm the church.

I don't think I ever like excommunication at all. But I kind of understand this apostasy related reason. It's not their sins are more serious, it's just a different thing that needs to be addressed differently. Plus, it's kind of anti-Mormony (looking at you, funk, John Dehlin, etc) to imply that it's simply a comparison over which sins are more severe, when you know that's not really what the church is doing.

It's kind of like this. If you bring someone in and say what you're doing is wrong. If they say no it's not, and I won't change. Then maybe excommunication is on the table. If they say yes I know it's wrong, I'm trying, but I'm weak. Then I think maybe they don't get excommunicated. Ever, no matter how serious the sin.

if you disagree with the premise that excommunication should never occur for non apostasy reasons, that’s a different matter.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I disagree.

I don't think excommunication should be on the table for anything sin/weakness related. I think that implies a doctrinal position of works and worthiness that I don't like. Whether you murdered someone or raped or cut someone off in traffic, we are all sinners.

On apostasy related items, I can understand how the Church needs to make a boundary when people like Denver Snuffer are leading people away from the church or like John Dehlin or Jeremy Runnels where they are antagonizing the Church in a highly critical way and with intent to harm the church.

I don't think I ever like excommunication at all. But I kind of understand this apostasy related reason. It's not their sins are more serious, it's just a different thing that needs to be addressed differently. Plus, it's kind of anti-Mormony (looking at you, funk, John Dehlin, etc) to imply that it's simply a comparison over which sins are more severe, when you know that's not really what the church is doing.

It's kind of like this. If you bring someone in and say what you're doing is wrong. If they say no it's not, and I won't change. Then maybe excommunication is on the table. If they say yes I know it's wrong, I'm trying, but I'm weak. Then I think maybe they don't get excommunicated. Ever, no matter how serious the sin.

OK, I agree that ranking things is kind of dumb. Good point.

But don't you think certain things are so egregious and so damning to the church that a severe response isn't warranted? I think goes waaaaaay beyond punishing a sinner.

[MartyFunkhouser]

I disagree.

I don't think excommunication should be on the table for anything sin/weakness related. I think that implies a doctrinal position of works and worthiness that I don't like. Whether you murdered someone or raped or cut someone off in traffic, we are all sinners.

On apostasy related items, I can understand how the Church needs to make a boundary when people like Denver Snuffer are leading people away from the church or like John Dehlin or Jeremy Runnels where they are antagonizing the Church in a highly critical way and with intent to harm the church.

I don't think I ever like excommunication at all. But I kind of understand this apostasy related reason. It's not their sins are more serious, it's just a different thing that needs to be addressed differently. Plus, it's kind of anti-Mormony (looking at you, funk, John Dehlin, etc) to imply that it's simply a comparison over which sins are more severe, when you know that's not really what the church is doing.

It's kind of like this. If you bring someone in and say what you're doing is wrong. If they say no it's not, and I won't change. Then maybe excommunication is on the table. If they say yes I know it's wrong, I'm trying, but I'm weak. Then I think maybe they don't get excommunicated. Ever, no matter how serious the sin.

This isn't about comparing a list of sins. I agree comparing a list of sins is dumb.

I think the characterization of me as being "anti-Mormony" on this issue is extremely inaccurate. I also think lumping me in with Dehlin is both extremely unfair and extremely inaccurate.

I have given the church nothing but slack on this issue. I have consistently said that criticism should be withheld from now. If the LDS church doesn't take this and change to prevent it in the future, then I'll lead the pack criticizing the LDS church.

I'd also ask, how is his behavior not Apostacy related and not leading people out related? I'd guess that someone who abuses Priesthood Authority to groom and prey on women will probably lead at least one person out of the fold.

[smokymountainrain]

OK, I agree that ranking things is kind of dumb. Good point.

But don't you think certain things are so egregious and so damning to the church that a severe response isn't warranted? I think goes waaaaaay beyond punishing a sinner.

yup

[jay santos]

This isn't about comparing a list of sins. I agree comparing a list of sins is dumb.

I think the characterization of me as being "anti-Mormony" on this issue is extremely inaccurate. I also think lumping me in with Dehlin is both extremely unfair and extremely inaccurate.

I have given the church nothing but slack on this issue. I have consistently said that criticism should be withheld from now. If the LDS church doesn't take this and change to prevent it in the future, then I'll lead the pack criticizing the LDS church.

I'd also ask, how is his behavior not Apostacy related and not leading people out related? I'd guess that someone who abuses Priesthood Authority to groom and prey on women will probably lead at least one person out of the fold.

None of this has anything to do with my point which is that excommunication is not simply a thing where they rank all the sins and ex for the very worst.

[falafel]

not sure how a reasonable person disagrees with funks points here re excommunication.

Angling to become fb friends with funk with this kind of post.