Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[Uncle Ted]

I suspected that the statute of limitations was different back in 1984. The clock stops when you're out of state. Where Bishop lives in Arizona, has he spent 4 years in Utah since 1984? Obviously he spent a couple more years as MTC President Provo.

I wonder if the statute of limitations applies... So she apparently did talk to the police or at least her bishop (who should have reported it to the police) within the statute of limitations. The case for whatever reason was closed. But now there is new evidence. Couldn't they just open the old case? Come on you damn lawyers... give us the answer.

[jay santos]

OK, I agree that ranking things is kind of dumb. Good point.

But don't you think certain things are so egregious and so damning to the church that a severe response isn't warranted? I think goes waaaaaay beyond punishing a sinner.

It's not like my most burning issue, but no I don't think excommunication should be a response to sin. Not allowing callings, definitely. Banning someone from attending or stepping on Church property, I could see that. Excommunication just seems like something that should go away to me.

[old_gregg]

Angling to become fb friends with funk with this kind of post.

[Northwestcoug]

if you disagree with the premise that excommunication should never occur for non apostasy reasons, that’s a different matter.

JS staking out the 'no excommunication even for rape or murder' area here. I think he has sole claim to it so far.

[MartyFunkhouser]

None of this has anything to do with my point which is that excommunication is not simply a thing where they rank all the sins and ex for the very worst.

It isn't and nor is my point that we rank the sins and ex for the very worst either. I think what we are actually looking at here is what actions are most damaging to the church. You seem to understand and at least accept that excommunication the Dehlin, Snuffer, Kelly, Runnel types has some value because they are engaging in actions that damage the church. Well, what Joseph Bishop did is significantly more damaging to the church than anything those 4 did. He covertly operated within the structure of the church to hurt other people to satisfy his own desires. His actions have the potential for more damage to individual church members and institutional damage.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I am against most disciplinary councils, but 100% supportive in a case like this. Good grief, you have a man using his position of power in the church to abuse young women. If that doesn't warrant a severe reaction from the church, nothing does.

I grew up with a best friend who was from a very Catholic family, I didn't understand what it meant at the time but I remember before I left on my mission my friends dad made a wisecrack about how the biggest difference between Catholicism and Mormonism is that Catholics claim their leader is infallible, but none of them believe it, Mormons claim their leaders are just human and make mistakes, but none of them believe it.

I think when things like this happens some members of the church dig in so hard because of the "prophet can never lead us astray" doctrine a lot of us grew up with.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Angling to become fb friends with funk with this kind of post.

Before I quit FB I was already friends with him, #squad

[jay santos]

It isn't and nor is my point that we rank the sins and ex for the very worst either. I think what we are actually looking at here is what actions are most damaging to the church. You seem to understand and at least accept that excommunication the Dehlin, Snuffer, Kelly, Runnel types has some value because they are engaging in actions that damage the church. Well, what Joseph Bishop did is significantly more damaging to the church than anything those 4 did. He covertly operated within the structure of the church to hurt other people to satisfy his own desires. His actions have the potential for more damage to individual church members and institutional damage.

That's not how you framed it. You framed it the same way I've heard Dehlin frequently frame it. List of sins. What is worse? ie morally worse not "worse for the Church" or "fits a definition the Church has set", etc. Then you get to beat up the church for having such a twisted prioritizing of what sins are most serious.

[MartyFunkhouser]

That's not how you framed it. You framed it the same way I've heard Dehlin frequently frame it. List of sins. What is worse? ie morally worse not "worse for the Church" or "fits a definition the Church has set", etc. Then you get to beat up the church for having such a twisted prioritizing of what sins are most serious.

Jay stop fucking lumping me in with Dehlin, it is both inaccurate and unfair. I have given the church nothing but passes on this and have focused in on what needs to do to change the institution to prevent this type of thing for happening. Excommunication is often about sending a message. Kate Kelly was excommunicated to send a message. Runnels was excommunicated to send a message. Dehlin was excommunicated to send a message. You don't excommunicate this asshole, you send a huge message. It is about the message being sent, not the prioritization of sins. I said in my post, the church has excommunication and you have to consider the message it sends if you don't ex this guy.

[Uncle Ted]

Yet another interesting interview that doesn't paint a very good picture of JLB... apparently he had to reach a settlement while at Webber Stake for discrimination:

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/...seph-l-bishop/

[jay santos]

Jay stop fucking lumping me in with Dehlin, it is both inaccurate and unfair. I have given the church nothing but passes on this and have focused in on what needs to do to change the institution to prevent this type of thing for happening. Excommunication is often about sending a message. Kate Kelly was excommunicated to send a message. Runnels was excommunicated to send a message. Dehlin was excommunicated to send a message. You don't excommunicate this asshole, you send a huge message. It is about the message being sent, not the prioritization of sins. I said in my post, the church has excommunication and you have to consider the message it sends if you don't ex this guy.

It's hard not to lump you in (on this point!) when you're using the same logic from the same memes they are, creating a straw man about excommunication being about "seriousness of sin" and then beating it up. I'm surprised you didn't include the same graphic they all were passing around.

[jay santos]

Another twist. https://twitter.com/jonesnews/status/976647088984346624

She accused him of actual rape in the BYU police report. Why is Provo City Policy saying statute of limitations ran out?

[Pelado]

It's hard not to lump you in (on this point!) when you're using the same logic from the same memes they are, creating a straw man about excommunication being about "seriousness of sin" and then beating it up. I'm surprised you didn't include the same graphic they all were passing around.

I haven't seen the graphic, but (and this is difficult) funk does have a point. Here's what funk actually wrote leading up to his comparisons between Bishop's alleged actions and the recent excommunicants:

The LDS church does excommunicate people. What is going on now is high profile and people will look at what happens and the message it sends. Look at the recent excommunications (and assume that all of them are fully justified)

That doesn't sound so unreasonable to me.

It's not really a question of what is the more grievous sin - it's about the message the church is sending. The church excommunicated Kelly, Snuffer, et. al. at least in part to send a message to the membership that those individuals were dealing in false doctrine and should not be trusted. If they're going to send a message about not trusting someone, I'd definitely want added to the list someone who abuses his position of priesthood influence to seduce and/or abuse women.

[Pelado]

Another twist. https://twitter.com/jonesnews/status/976647088984346624

She accused him of actual rape in the BYU police report. Why is Provo City Policy saying statute of limitations ran out?

They said the statute of limitations in force at the time of the alleged incident was only 4 years.

[jay santos]

They said the statute of limitations in force at the time of the alleged incident was only 4 years.

Wow, how could rape have statute of limitations of four years. Darn.