Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[falafel]

Sure Kelly, Dehlin, etc. engaged in high profile actions that were actively trying to lead church members in a direction contrary to church leadership and doctrine. Bishop didn't try to lead the church members as a whole against leadership and doctrine. Bishop did though with the individuals he interacted with attempt to lead them in a direction contrary to church leadership and doctrine. His actions with each woman that he groomed and abused is just as much going to lead those people into "Apostacy" as Dehlin and Kelly.

So is the counting and ranking now, the number of people lead into Apostacy? You don't think the church itself can send a message that, we support both macro and micro attempts to lead people into Apostacy. You don't think the church can send a message under its "zero tolerance for abuse policy" that people that use the church to abuse people will have no place in it?

I disagree that Bishop was leading people to apostasy, although I understand your point.

Regardless, I'm not advocating some kind of rankng system, and I don't think a ranking is necessary if you are excommunicating some and not others.

[falafel]

Then you have to be against excommunication in each and every instance and cannot make the exception for Apostacy or those trying to lead members into Apostacy.

I think it we should apply some libertarian principles here. If you are messing with your own relationship with God, no excommunication. If you are messing with others' relationships with God, you can be exed.

[smokymountainrain]

I think it we should apply some libertarian principles here. If you are messing with your own relationship with God, no excommunication. If you are messing with others' relationships with God, you can be exed.

would the victim(s) in this case count as "others"?

[jay santos]

I think it we should apply some libertarian principles here. If you are messing with your own relationship with God, no excommunication. If you are messing with others' relationships with God, you can be exed.

Not to go slippery slope on you, but I have heard of case of excommunication of someone in a relatively low profile calling, ie below bishop, because their sins messed with others' relationship with God. Others meaning fellow ward members, not anyone involved in the excommunicable sin.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I disagree that Bishop was leading people to apostasy, although I understand your point.

Regardless, I'm not advocating some kind of rankng system, and I don't think a ranking is necessary if you are excommunicating some and not others.

I think it we should apply some libertarian principles here. If you are messing with your own relationship with God, no excommunication. If you are messing with others' relationships with God, you can be exed.

I would say that someone using a highly esteemed position of power inside the church, to gain sexual contact from someone who believes that person has been assigned by revelation from God to lead/oversee messing with that person's relationship with God and possibly leading them to apostatize.

You are trying so hard to be the contrarian viewpoint in this. At least be contrarian for something fun, not a predator who uses his church power to do it. Go troll pro-Trump stuff in one of the 18 Trump threads. Most of the same people will reply to you there.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I disagree that Bishop was leading people to apostasy, although I understand your point.

Regardless, I'm not advocating some kind of rankng system, and I don't think a ranking is necessary if you are excommunicating some and not others.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Yeah, ground up chick peas/fava bean is tripling down on moron, jackass, or both

[RC Vikings]

I grew up with a best friend who was from a very Catholic family, I didn't understand what it meant at the time but I remember before I left on my mission my friends dad made a wisecrack about how the biggest difference between Catholicism and Mormonism is that Catholics claim their leader is infallible, but none of them believe it, Mormons claim their leaders are just human and make mistakes, but none of them believe it.

I think when things like this happens some members of the church dig in so hard because of the "prophet can never lead us astray" doctrine a lot of us grew up with.

That's good.

[Moliere]

2 inches?

[old_gregg]

2 inches?

he was flaccid. you try doing better when you’re pushing rope.

[creekster]

I think Santos is on to something and I very much like the line he is drawing between apostasy/heresy and sin. I think it would be a great way to approach it. But, the fact is, this is not how the church approaches it now. If this guy has not been disciplined previously, and in light of what are apparent admissions to egregious misconduct as the MTC president and elsewhere, I can't imagine how he is not excommunicated.

I suppose there might be some mitigation involved based on how long ago the offenses too place, his repentant attitude and possibly his lack of misconduct since the offenses, but even allowing for that, under the current approach, I just can't imagine how this does not warrant excommunication.

The entire episode is very, very sad. I hope the victim can find peace in her mind and heart.

[Northwestcoug]

Welcome back, Creek!

[SeattleUte]

Is anyone surprised that this type of thing doesn’t happen or get exposed more often? All these revered and all-powerful male clerics in a rigidly hierarchical organization charged with in private interrogating and probing women and girls (and men and boys) of all ages about their intimate sexual lives (including masturbation). Seems like a setting ripe for grooming. This setting has occurred many millions of times, and continues to occur daily, over and over again. There must be something about the institution that suppresses in some way (including choices on the part of the victimized) disclosure or self-advocacy on the part of the victims.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Is anyone surprised that this type of thing doesn’t happen or get exposed more often? All these revered and all-powerful male clerics in a rigidly hierarchical organization charged with in private interrogating and probing women and girls (and men and boys) of all ages about their intimate sexual lives (including masturbation). Seems like a setting ripe for grooming. This setting has occurred many millions of times, and continues to occur daily, over and over again. There must be something about the institution that suppresses in some way (including choices on the part of the victimized) disclosure or self-advocacy on the part of the victims.

Dude, you should see what has been going on in Hollywood.

[falafel]

I would say that someone using a highly esteemed position of power inside the church, to gain sexual contact from someone who believes that person has been assigned by revelation from God to lead/oversee messing with that person's relationship with God and possibly leading them to apostatize.

You are trying so hard to be the contrarian viewpoint in this. At least be contrarian for something fun, not a predator who uses his church power to do it. Go troll pro-Trump stuff in one of the 18 Trump threads. Most of the same people will reply to you there.

What?! I'm not even trying, let alone trying hard!