Elderbednarophobia

[SoonerCoug]

Yeah the Church is imperfect. I mean goodness the emphasis on the BOM which is obviously not authentic is very unfortunate. But the Church works for a lot of people (obviously not for everyone) to make them happier, healthier, etc. But the Church is more than just it's prior (and current) incorrect policies/doctrines/practices. Here's how my Prophet Sterling McMurrin put it:



http://dialoguejournal.com/wp-conten..._V17N01_20.pdf

I don't think anyone was calling Mormonism a facade here.

I'm sure you know that I have never cared about truth claims, nor have I doubted the value of a loving community.

One of the major issues I have struggled with is at what point my conscience prevents me from endorsing a leadership that uses immense church resources to persecute an entire segment of society.

Would you donate 10% of your income to any other charity or group that spent millions to stop gay marriage? If not, what is it about Mormonism that makes it palatable for you to send your dollars to a cause like this?

I would contend that the only thing driving you to give them your money and attend their church is the mere fact that you were born into a Mormon family, instantly labeled as a Mormon child before your brain could retain memories, and then indoctrinated throughout your developing years. Everything else is just your rationalization. And I'll remind you that your prophet left the church.

[eldiente]

Res ipsa loquitur

[TripletDaddy]

We need to get back to sooners source. The date and title of the source leads you to a BYU I page for president bednar. There is a specific link to that seminar or conference but no evidence of any of the quoted material. Sooner has yet to provide any evidence to support his Elderbednarophobia.

i did find the power point presentation The Bed gave to be somewhat funny. It starts off very churchy and the last several slides look like he was trying to get everyone to buy into Six Sigma. By the end of it I expected to see a Zig Ziglar quote mixed in there.

[SoonerCoug]

We need to get back to sooners source. The date and title of the source leads you to a BYU I page for president bednar. There is a specific link to that seminar or conference but no evidence of any of the quoted material. Sooner has yet to provide any evidence to support his Elderbednarophobia.

i did find the power point presentation The Bed gave to be somewhat funny. It starts off very churchy and the last several slides look like he was trying to get everyone to buy into Six Sigma. By the end of it I expected to see a Zig Ziglar quote mixed in there.

I acknowledge that there is no openly available, independent record of specific words he used and that the original quote could be wrong or out of context although I think it is entirely consistent with Bednar's typical speaking and word choice. He absolutely loves to use the word lens in his talks.

I have also acknowledged that he probably didn't really mean what he said. I'm sure he is not a book burner and actually uses things from books like the church handbook.

Let me remind you that this man revoked an apostolic blessing on a stake over loud conversations in a chapel.

[TripletDaddy]

I acknowledge that there is no openly available, independent record of specific words he used and that the original quote could be wrong or out of context although I think it is entirely consistent with Bednar's typical speaking and word choice. He absolutely loves to use the word lens in his talks.

Let me remind you that this man revoked an apostolic blessing on a stake over loud conversations in a chapel.

As a scientist how would you value a similarly unsupported hypothesis?

[SoonerCoug]

As a scientist how would you value a similarly unsupported hypothesis?

I acknowledge the possibility that it is an inaccurate quote.

It is supposedly from a video of his talk that is on internal BYU-Idaho servers but not openly available on the internet.

I have asked the original quoting party to chime in here. Maybe he can produce the video for us.

And if you want to apply scientific rigor to everything Mormon, by all means do it.

[TripletDaddy]

I acknowledge the possibility that it is an inaccurate quote.

It is supposedly from a video of his talk that is on internal BYU-Idaho servers but not openly available on the internet.

I hate those internal BYU Idaho servers!!!

[Commando]

I don't think anyone was calling Mormonism a facade here.

I'm sure you know that I have never cared about truth claims, nor have I doubted the value of a loving community.

One of the major issues I have struggled with is at what point my conscience prevents me from endorsing a leadership that uses immense church resources to persecute an entire segment of society.

Would you donate 10% of your income to any other charity or group that spent millions to stop gay marriage? If not, what is it about Mormonism that makes it palatable for you to send your dollars to a cause like this?

I would contend that the only thing driving you to give them your money and attend their church is the mere fact that you were born into a Mormon family, instantly labeled as a Mormon child before your brain could retain memories, and then indoctrinated throughout your developing years. Everything else is just your rationalization. And I'll remind you that your prophet left the church.

It's remarkable how polar opposite our views of the Church are. You absolutely adore the structure and the organization of the Church and hold your nose at the spiritual stuff, whereas I absolutely believe in the Book of Mormon and Christ's Atonement and feel like going to Church blows because I can't stand the society.

No wonder you think you'd go back to church if they'd tweak x y and z; it's like a fraternity that you pledged into, but went in a direction you didn't like.

[SoonerCoug]

It's remarkable how polar opposite our views of the Church are. You absolutely adore the structure and the organization of the Church and hold your nose at the spiritual stuff, whereas I absolutely believe in the Book of Mormon and Christ's Atonement and feel like going to Church blows because I can't stand the society.

I agree. That is interesting.

I was referring to holding my nose at donating money that could be spent to prevent gay marriage, which I do not view as something spiritual. But your point is definitely interesting.

Different people value different things. I think that is the overall message.

For people with your belief system, how does it make you feel that the only reason you are Mormon is because you were born where you were at the time when you were? In other words, if you were born 20,000 years ago in a cave in France or 100 years ago in Tajikistan or today in Yemen, you would believe something entirely different--probably with the same passion. How does your mind deal with that?

[Commando]

I agree. That is interesting.

I was referring to holding my nose at donating money that could be spent to prevent gay marriage, which I do not view as something spiritual. But your point is definitely interesting.

Different people value different things. I think that is the overall message.

Oh I know- I probably just borrowed your phrase since it was fresh on my mind. But I think that contrast we see is informative as to what reads well with certain posters re: changing/critiquing the church's policies and what is viewed as "unchangeable." I think Kate Kelly would have done well to recognize that difference because I have to believe she falls on your side of things despite her half-hearted claims to the contrary.

[SoonerCoug]

Oh I know- I probably just borrowed your phrase since it was fresh on my mind. But I think that contrast we see is informative as to what reads well with certain posters re: changing/critiquing the church's policies and what is viewed as "unchangeable." I think Kate Kelly would have done well to recognize that difference because I have to believe she falls on your side of things despite her half-hearted claims to the contrary.

Oh I agree. I think Kate Kelly and I are quite similar except she has way bigger figurative balls.

[YOhio]

For people with your belief system, how does it make you feel that the only reason you are Mormon is because you were born where you were at the time when you were? In other words, if you were born 20,000 years ago in a cave in France or 100 years ago in Tajikistan or today in Yemen, you would believe something entirely different--probably with the same passion. How does your mind deal with that?

That would suck if he was born at another time because then commando would know he wasn't part of the chosen generation.

[Commando]

That would suck if he was born at another time because then commando would know he wasn't part of the chosen generation.

Not true! I would have no idea about chosen generations and Gods and Devils. In fact, I might have been born a pre-adamic Giant, which would have been kickass! :rockon2:

[SoonerCoug]

That would suck if he was born at another time because then commando would know he wasn't part of the chosen generation.

Y, I think you're awesome. I love the things you post.

I have long thought that you are probably the most cynical person on this message board.

The disbelief is palpable in your posts but also nicely camouflaged. It's brilliant. It is brother jake-esque but even better.

[SoonerCoug]

No wonder you think you'd go back to church if they'd tweak x y and z; it's like a fraternity that you pledged into, but went in a direction you didn't like.

I agree with your statement about tweaking.

I disagree with the pledging analogy. As a child I was compelled to pledge into this fraternity by adults, as has happened with millions of children in almost every world religion.

The practice of automatically labeling an innocent child as Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Catholic, or Hindu simply because she was born to parents with those beliefs is despicable to me.

Would you call it fair to name a 2 year old kid a nazi simply because its parents were nazis?

Let the child grow up to adulthood before deciding. If it is worth it to join, children shouldn't be compelled to "pledge."

If I'm wrong, find me an example of an 8-year-old "Mormon child" who despite parental objections refused baptism until adulthood.