Elderbednarophobia

[Pheidippides]

What in the Holy name of Eddie Horatio Merckx On A Stick is the issue here? Bednar, an admitted hardliner, said something so ridiculous that it can't possibly be true. The overwhelming likelihood is that he was employing hyperbole to underscore the importance of spiritual over secular.

In other words, a professional clergyman tried to convince people to be more faithful using a rhetorical device that not only has its roots deep in his religion and predecessors, near and far, but is pretty much the same damn thing that justifies our collective existence on the interwebs. And I'm supposed to care why?

Sorry, my outrage is taking a pass on this one.

[Moliere]

We need to get back to sooners source. The date and title of the source leads you to a BYU I page for president bednar. There is a specific link to that seminar or conference but no evidence of any of the quoted material. Sooner has yet to provide any evidence to support his Elderbednarophobia.

i did find the power point presentation The Bed gave to be somewhat funny. It starts off very churchy and the last several slides look like he was trying to get everyone to buy into Six Sigma. By the end of it I expected to see a Zig Ziglar quote mixed in there.

The lack of evidence to support Sooners love of evidence is deafening...

[SoonerCoug]

What in the Holy name of Eddie Horatio Merckx On A Stick is the issue here? Bednar, an admitted hardliner, said something so ridiculous that it can't possibly be true. The overwhelming likelihood is that he was employing hyperbole to underscore the importance of spiritual over secular.

In other words, a professional clergyman tried to convince people to be more faithful using a rhetorical device that not only has its roots deep in his religion and predecessors, near and far, but is pretty much the same damn thing that justifies our collective existence on the interwebs. And I'm supposed to care why?

Sorry, my outrage is taking a pass on this one.

You're right. Bednar was just being a dufus. Not the end of the world.

You're interrupting a good discussion on whether it is ethical to automatically label children by the faith of their parents.

[Commando]

I agree with your statement about tweaking.

I disagree with the pledging analogy. As a child I was compelled to pledge into this fraternity by adults, as has happened with millions of children in almost every world religion.

The practice of automatically labeling an innocent child as Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Catholic, or Hindu simply because she was born to parents with those beliefs is despicable to me.

Would you call it fair to name a 2 year old kid a nazi simply because its parents were nazis?

Let the child grow up to adulthood before deciding. If it is worth it to join, children shouldn't be compelled to "pledge."

If I'm wrong, find me an example of an 8-year-old "Mormon child" who despite parental objections refused baptism until adulthood.

Ehh I think you're getting away from the point. You are free to come and go as you please (albeit socially difficult), much like a fraternity.

[SoonerCoug]

Ehh I think you're getting away from the point. You are free to come and go as you please (albeit socially difficult), much like a fraternity.

Are children free?

Is it ethical to compel children to join and attend any religious group that indoctrinates them from a young age and compels them to be baptized as a child or even at age 8, given the lifelong consequences of it all?

Why not wait until they are adults to ask if they want to be baptized.

[Pheidippides]

You're right. Bednar was just being a dufus. Not the end of the world.

You're interrupting a good discussion on whether it is ethical to automatically label children by the faith of their parents.

Okay, fine. The correct answer is who the eff cares, especially when the discussion comes at the expense of Mark Grace, who is objectively awesome.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I hate those internal BYU Idaho servers!!!

Pretty progressive to call them servers instead of waitresses though, progress!

[Commando]

Are children free?

Is it ethical to compel children to join and attend any religious group that indoctrinates them from a young age and compels them to be baptized as a child or even at age 8, given the lifelong consequences of it all?

Why not wait until they are adults to ask if they want to be baptized.

1. You, an adult, are free, and that's whom we were talking about I think.

2. Okay, on to this discussion: I don't think there is much ethical distinction between teaching kids beliefs, standards, moral values and the more pejorative term, indoctrination. Yes, we in Mormonism take pains to distinguish between the practice of infant baptism and what we do, which is child baptism. As far as that goes, I think that act has zero effect on a person compared to his/her upbringing. Case in point: my sister has never been really well versed in the Church and went through the motions with us growing up, but never developed her own convictions of its truthfulness, slowly slipped from activity, and now doesn't even consider herself LDS. Her now 17 year old daughter doesn't either, even though I personally baptized and confirmed her. That's disappointing to me, but that's how she was raised.

[SoonerCoug]

1. You, an adult, are free, and that's whom we were talking about I think.

2. Okay, on to this discussion: I don't think there is much ethical distinction between teaching kids beliefs, standards, moral values and the more pejorative term, indoctrination. Yes, we in Mormonism take pains to distinguish between the practice of infant baptism and what we do, which is child baptism. As far as that goes, I think that act has zero effect on a person compared to his/her upbringing. Case in point: my sister has never been really well versed in the Church and went through the motions with us growing up, but never developed her own convictions of its truthfulness, slowly slipped from activity, and now doesn't even consider herself LDS. Her now 17 year old daughter doesn't either, even though I personally baptized and confirmed her. That's disappointing to me, but that's how she was raised.

I would contend that major religions would cease to exist if children were not raised to believe in them, even though some children still grow up and leave their religion.

[Commando]

I would contend that major religions would cease to exist if children were not raised to believe in them, even though some children still grow up and leave their religion.

Ehh maybe. I would counter on behalf of Mormonism by saying that there are a substantial number of converts, and that it requires a personal conversion, regardless of how one is reared. See the above example and yourself.

[Sizzle]

Plus, considering that his posts are about a variety of subjects whereas the vast majority of yours are pretty much the same thing over and over, it makes the disparity even more pronounced.

To be fair, I'm sure 20,000 of MarkGraces posts are in the "What I'm listening to now" thread.

[Pheidippides]

To be fair, I'm sure 20,000 of MarkGraces posts are in the "What I'm listening to now" thread.

I bet it's not obscure Bednar talks from 14 years ago, so I'm calling that point, MarkGrace

[SoonerCoug]

I bet it's not obscure Bednar talks from 14 years ago, so I'm calling that point, MarkGrace

I see you're still upset I called you out for comparing African-American football players to Buckwheat.

[Pheidippides]

I see you're still upset I called you out for comparing African-American football players to Buckwheat.

Me? I had a smashing success cooking and mixing drinks all weekend, exploded fireworks the size of coke cans, spent all day long at the beach yesterday, fit in a 60 mile bike ride somewhere, started learning French, and spent several hours with my Mormon friends and didn't bring up any Mormon-related topic even once. Plus I spent all morning reading a book I thoroughly enjoyed without interruption. I'm not upset at anything. Even Buckwheat.

[SoonerCoug]

Me? I had a smashing success cooking and mixing drinks all weekend, exploded fireworks the size of coke cans, spent all day long at the beach yesterday, fit in a 60 mile bike ride somewhere, started learning French, and spent several hours with my Mormon friends and didn't bring up any Mormon-related topic even once. Plus I spent all morning reading a book I thoroughly enjoyed without interruption. I'm not upset at anything. Even Buckwheat.

You imbibe now?? Shameful.

For the record, I drink tea and that's it. I even wear my garments. I kid you not. I will provide photos as proof to anyone interested, since I know my integrity is often called into question.