The June 1

[SeattleUte]

That's funny. Scroll up and you will see that everybody else (even those cheering for her) thought it was a poorly-written mess.

I think those cheering for her to whom you refer (I can't see what you're talking about) expected something less elegant, more of a hatchet job. The usual exmo frontal assault. She does give the devil his due, but therein lies the power of her argument. I've always felt that giving these kangaroo courts the patina of our legal courts was ludicrous. Apparently the LDS church has rules of civil procedure and such. Totally ridiculous. She says that a court that determines a person's eternal salvation needs to do much better. lol. Awesome. You can't help but think, is that what this is? Is God Stalin? I don't care what the other exmos say, I totally disagree that this is anything other than brilliant.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Have you read it?

Yes. I thought it was way too long and rambling. It reads like a general diatribe against the church composed by cutting and pasting from various blogs, rather than a carefully-reasoned and strategic defense of Sister Kelly. If the objective was to get a few punches in on the way out the door, I suppose it was OK. If the objective was to convince this particular group of leaders why they are making a big mistake and why they should not vote to ex her, I think it was a disaster. The author should have picked the strongest points to make and argued them in a simple and concise fashion.

BTW, Kate Kelly did not write the brief.

[SeattleUte]

Yes. I thought it was way too long and rambling. It reads like a general diatribe against the church composed by cutting and pasting from various blogs, rather than a carefully-reasoned and strategic defense of Sister Kelly. If the objective was to get a few punches in on the way out the door, I suppose it was OK. If the objective was to convince this particular group of leaders why they are making a big mistake and why they should not vote to ex her, I think it was a disaster. The author should have picked the strongest points to make and argued them in a simple and concise fashion.

BTW, Kate Kelly did not write the brief.

Fuck. I understand Kate Kelly did not write the brief.

As I suggested in my latest post, of course this wasn't really a legal brief. The whole thing is ludicrous and this pamphlet or whatever you want to call it does a great job of exposing the ironies. You act like this is a real court and the objective is to win this "trial". This is not a respectable "court" and the principled approach is not to treat it as one.

[creekster]

Fuck. I understand Kate Kelly did not write the brief.

As I suggested in my latest post, of course this wasn't really a legal brief. The whole thing is ludicrous and this pamphlet or whatever you want to call it does a great job of exposing the ironies. You act like this is a real court and the objective is to win this "trial". This is not a respectable "court" and the principled approach is not to treat it as one.

Was it a good bottle of wine?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Fuck. I understand Kate Kelly did not write the brief.

As I suggested in my latest post, of course this wasn't really a legal brief. The whole thing is ludicrous and this pamphlet or whatever you want to call it does a great job of exposing the ironies. You act like this is a real court and the objective is to win this "trial". This is not a respectable "court" and the principled approach is not to treat it as one.

lol.

I rest my case.

[SeattleUte]

JL, fyi the convention in real courts is to refer to the lawyers' arguments as arguments by the parties. Hence I refer to Kelly's arguments as such even though she's represented by legal counsel. This whole thing is worthy of Monty Python; however, she's brilliantly exposed the fear and loathing of women by ignorant men who got the LDS church into this predicament.

[SeattleUte]

lol.

I rest my case.

Exactly. I'm glad to see that the point here isn't to take the milquetoast progmo way out. They're going for the jugular.

[SeattleUte]

Was it a good bottle of wine?

The irony here is that you and JL act like you take this proceeding seriously and you don't appreciate her ultra "serious" take on it, clear down to challenging whether "service" was effective. You really are one of the pod people, aren't you.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Exactly. I'm glad to see that the point here isn't to take the milquetoast progmo way out. They're going for the jugular.

So now Kate Kelly is not a ProgMo? Funny.

And do you think anyone but a very small handful of people is going to read this complete brief? 99.99% of the public will just see the outcome and a few brief facts about the process. This brief is no different than literally thousands of blog posts on the same topic. If you think this brief will have any significant reach or impact beyond what has already been said, you are really out of touch.

[creekster]

The irony here is that you and JL act like you take this proceeding seriously and you don't appreciate her ultra "serious" take on it, clear down to challenging whether "service" was effective. You really are one of the pod people, aren't you.

You are kidding yourself. About all of it. From your assessment of me, when you know better, to the supposed brilliance of the brief, which you conjure and impute but which is not to be found there.

[SeattleUte]

So now Kate Kelly is not a ProgMo? Funny.

And do you think anyone but a very small handful of people is going to read this complete brief? 99.99% of the public will just see the outcome and a few brief facts about the process. This brief is no different than literally thousands of blog posts on the same topic. If you think this brief will have any significant reach or impact beyond what has already been said, you are really out of touch.

Most important, it will not have any significant impact on the gentlemen to whom it's directed. I'm sure you've read many more blog posts on this than I have so I'm sure you're right that there's nothing original here. But I think this works as a systematic and somewhat lawyerly taking apart of the LDS Church's pretensions here that is more for the record than to sway public opinion. Apparently you are beyond enlightening, which makes me despair of more rote followers of LDS dogma. But progress marches on and like Moby Dick or the Gettysburg Address I predict this writing will get its full due in time.

[SeattleUte]

You are kidding yourself. About all of it. From your assessment of me, when you know better, to the supposed brilliance of the brief, which you conjure and impute but which is not to be found there.

You are being as condescending and pretentious as President Wheatley in simply dismissing it. I have addressed substantively what I find impressive about the brief. I have only alluded to the conclusion, which as I said, is a harvest of low hanging fruit. But let's start there with the easy part. Do you find fault with her reasoning in analogizing to the ban on blacks holding the priesthood and contrasting the LDS Church's unwillingness to reevaluate the ban on female priesthood holders with its ex post facto and self-serving assertion of repeated entreaties to God to allow them to ordain blacks sand give them full access to the temple?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Most important, it will not have any significant impact on the gentlemen to whom it's directed.

EXACTLY!!! That is my point.

I'm sure you've read many more blog posts on this than I have so I'm sure you're right that there's nothing original here. But I think this works as a systematic and somewhat lawyerly taking apart of the LDS Church's pretensions here that is more for the record than to sway public opinion. Apparently you are beyond enlightening, which makes me despair of more rote followers of LDS dogma. But progress marches on and like Moby Dick or the Gettysburg Address I predict this writing will get its full due in time.

Beyond enlightening? I can't believe you are so mean to me when I am such a loyal and faithful friend.

[SeattleUte]

EXACTLY!!! That is my point.

My friend, if the point were for her to "win" in this faux court, and I were her lawyer, I'd tell her to put on a long drab dress with a high neck line and some fake breasts and fly there (go to the mountain to see Muhammad as the saying goes) and tell them that this OW thing is just a harmless little hobby of hers because a woman can get so bored while the man is out there earning money for the family and she never intended to offend the anointed leaders of God and her LDS membership means so much more to her than this OW web site, which is why she wanted to attend that priesthood meeting, and it's all a big misunderstanding, and bear her testimony and be sure to cry, and say pretty please let her stay a Mormon and continue this little hobby of hers as she meant no harm.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My friend, if the point were for her to "win" in this faux court, and I were her lawyer, I'd tell her to put on a long drab dress with a high neck line and some fake breasts and fly there (go to the mountain to see Muhammad as the saying goes) and tell them that this OW thing is just a harmless little hobby of hers because a woman can get so bored while the man is out there earning money for the family and she never intended to offend the anointed leaders of God and her LDS membership means so much more to her than this OW web site, which is why she wanted to attend that priesthood meeting, and it's all a big misunderstanding, and bear her testimony and be sure to cry, and say pretty please let her stay a Mormon and continue this little hobby of hers as she meant no harm.

So do you think Kate Kelly is nothing but a fraud? Do you think that when she does these TV and radio interviews where she weeps as she describes how much she loves the church and how much she values her membership in the church, that it is nothing more than a cynical and manipulative act? So do you believe that she is shamelessly allowing all of those candlelight vigils and prayer meetings to be carried out in her behalf tonight when she really doesn't want to retain her membership after all?

You sound just like Dan Peterson or Bill Hamblin.