Latest Stats and Facts on Punography

[cowboy]

Faith can do what she likes. I love her, but I don't own her. But it would break my heart if she didn't want to be my partner any more. I don't see a midnight cowboy as a threat.

For the record, I'm in a monogamous relationship (with my wife of 15 years) and I plan to keep it that way. Faith is out of luck.

[RobinFinderson]

Is anybody else just dying to hear Faith's perspective on all this?

RF, open marriage is exceedingly rare and the divorce rate is high. Usually couples turn to open marriage not because they're just that enlightened or progressive, but because they simply can't or don't want to commit.

I'll see if I can get Faith to respond later tonight.

The divorce statistics for people in open relationships is not important here. I'm not suggesting that an open relationship is a way to keep a failing relationship solvent. I'm not even advocating for open relationships, though that is clearly what some seem to think. I am simply acknowledging that different people establish relationships on different terms with different sets of responsibilities and expectations. I will respect any TOA that seem mutually agreed upon and crafted for mutual happiness. This is what I was trying to communicate the other night when I tried to point out that while your own relationship with your partner was different than mine with Faith, I didn't see that as a defect, so long as it was working for you.

I actually see a lot of problems with polygamy, polyandry and open relationships. I can tell you why it isn't for me, even though theoretically I wouldn't have a problem with it. I like to be around Faith. She is my best friend, and when we aren't together I typically wish we were. I enjoy being with her. If her trips to see a 'midnight cowboy' took her away from my company, that would make me sad.

Also, relationships are a lot of work. I tend to want to develop intimacy, so it is hard to imagine my wanting to have a casual sexual relationship. If I were going to do that, I would imagine it would take me away from Faith and LR too much, and that would be depressing.

Faith and I are sort of needy and co-dependent this way. Other folks might be able to balance their time in a way that allowed for more openness. If so, good for them, as long as it makes them happy.

[Non Sequitur]

It was Inigo who said that.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

[myboynoah]

I honestly don't know what to do with this information. I don't know whether to be more suspect of the mindset of men I interact with who don't speak of women this way; I don't know what weight to apply to the term "many" above; and, if I assign any non-crackpot credence to this idea, I'm left with all manner of confusion re: what my place in this world.

Those are cosmic questions that I will not try to answer. But I do think that men (and the women who care about them) need to acknowledge the male nature and not fight, deny, or suppress it. Sexually, we are wired the way we are wired. (So are women.)

I hesitate to go scriptural, but the best way I have found to make sense of this is in Alma 38: "[S]ee that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love . . . ." One of the most interesting passages anywhere on the subject. I love the analogy: There's no denying a horse's strength and power, but it can be bridled -- held to a stop when need be, to a slow trot when that is right, and at a full gallup when it's time for that. A bridle does not fight, deny, or suppress the horse's amazing strength. It simply directs it!

I also like the idea that bridling passions enables us to be filled with love. There's a fireside talk in that somewhere.

Not sure that makes sense. Back to work for me!

Thank you LA. In response to BBB, my response will probably be too brief and much less cosmic, but here goes.

Men are pigs. For evidence just reread some of the comments made in this thread; particularly from those that consider themselves the most enlightened. Or consider the very profitable porn industry. Or the sexualization of practically everything female. Having teenage daughters and dealing with this societal trend is extremely difficult.

What does it do to the self image, body image, of a teenage girl to be exposed to so much of this? What does it do to the young man whom she will date to reflect upon the porn he has been viewing? What are his expectations?

Men are pigs. And The Church does its best to de-Pigify them, and is as successful as any organization I know in doing so. I think The Church is spot on in speaking out against pornography. I suppose tweaking the message might help some accept it better, but are we really all that dense? Obviously there is still work to do.

[Non Sequitur]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

My apologies. I just looked it up. You're right.

[Sleeping in EQ]

your posts have been all over the place as you try to construct a logically consistent case from a logically inconsistent position.

By your own definitions, for Bill not to have been conducting an affair, Hillary would have had to have agreed to the open relationship before he started seeing other women. Soup is suggesting that Hillary did no such thing, but that after his pattern of serial adultery became apparent, she shrugged and gave up fighting. That's very different than the a priori approval that you were speaking of as the basis of a mutually respectful, open relationship.

You've got RF on the run, Babs.

[Coach McGuirk]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[RobinFinderson]

your posts have been all over the place as you try to construct a logically consistent case from a logically inconsistent position.

By your own definitions, for Bill not to have been conducting an affair, Hillary would have had to have agreed to the open relationship before he started seeing other women. Soup is suggesting that Hillary did no such thing, but that after his pattern of serial adultery became apparent, she shrugged and gave up fighting. That's very different than the a priori approval that you were speaking of as the basis of a mutually respectful, open relationship.

Everyone is just guessing here. Maybe there was real approval. Maybe it was tacit approval. Maybe they hate the other's guts. Some of those explanations are more comprehensible than others. I tend to think they aren't interested in each other sexually, but as two of the brightest people in any room they occupy, they might enjoy each other's company. It is hard to imagine being in a relationship without basic mutual respect, but maybe others are able to pull that off.

[KillerDog]

I'll never see a female urologist for example (I understand that the field encompasses women too, but still).

I've been to a female urologist. It was no different than the male variety.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Thank you LA. In response to BBB, my response will probably be too brief and much less cosmic, but here goes.

Men are pigs. For evidence just reread some of the comments made in this thread; particularly from those that consider themselves the most enlightened. Or consider the very profitable porn industry. Or the sexualization of practically everything female. Having teenage daughters and dealing with this societal trend is extremely difficult.

What does it do to the self image, body image, of a teenage girl to be exposed to so much of this? What does it do to the young man whom she will date to reflect upon the porn he has been viewing? What are his expectations?

Men are pigs. And The Church does its best to de-Pigify them, and is as successful as any organization I know in doing so. I think The Church is spot on in speaking out against pornography. I suppose tweaking the message might help some accept it better, but are we really all that dense? Obviously there is still work to do.

Yes, having a daughter certainly alters one's perspective.

[RobinFinderson]

Yes, having a daughter certainly alters one's perspective.

Having daughters has a way of turning people into feminists, which is another way of saying it makes them realize that the balance of power and opportunity in the world has tilted in favor of men for a long time. I don't think 'men are pigs' is a useful tool for looking at the problems feminism presents, even though in MBN's case it seems to be genuinely heartfelt. We want the best for our children, even as we continue to perpetuate a culture fueled by greed and self interest. So maybe a point like 'men are pigs' is simply a way of acknowledging that in a greedy materialistic society, those people with a bit more power (men in general, and white men in particular) will tend to be a bit more greedy and selfish than the baseline.

[Babs]

Everyone is just guessing here.

No, you're guessing. Nobody else brought it up.

I was simply using your own definition to refute your suggestion that tolerance is equivalent to approval and therefore implies an open relationship. Anticipation and/or expectation of the act need not imply acceptance or approval. Resignation, perhaps.

It's hard to imagine being in a relationship without that basic mutual respect...

But you've been arguing since yesterday that this is a perfectly legitimate and mutually-respectful option for marriage.

The truth is, Robin, that from the time you started posting last night you've been using your own reliance on porn to achieve orgasm as evidence that your marriage is somehow more liberated, more progressive, more enlightened, and less boring than the rest of ours. Your early posts dripped with presumption, self-righteousness, and condescension. Yet what it comes down to is that you haven't even bothered to sit down and figure out what it is that you're trying to argue. The only thing you're sure of is that you and Faith are perfectly happy and healthy incorporating the use of porn into your marriage. So perhaps you should skip the generalizations, just state as much outright, and leave it at that.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I have no interest in viewing porn.

[LA Ute]

Thank you LA. In response to BBB, my response will probably be too brief and much less cosmic, but here goes.

Men are pigs. For evidence just reread some of the comments made in this thread; particularly from those that consider themselves the most enlightened. Or consider the very profitable porn industry. Or the sexualization of practically everything female. Having teenage daughters and dealing with this societal trend is extremely difficult.

What does it do to the self image, body image, of a teenage girl to be exposed to so much of this? What does it do to the young man whom she will date to reflect upon the porn he has been viewing? What are his expectations?

Men are pigs. And The Church does its best to de-Pigify them, and is as successful as any organization I know in doing so. I think The Church is spot on in speaking out against pornography. I suppose tweaking the message might help some accept it better, but are we really all that dense? Obviously there is still work to do.

myboynoah has hit the nail squarely on the head. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[FN Phat]

I have no interest in viewing porn.

No? Just into producing porn, eh.