Latest Stats and Facts on Punography

[Sleeping in EQ]

No? Just into producing porn, eh.

Well, sometimes the curtains aren't pulled and the guy next door is a photographer, so....

In all seriousness, porn just doesn't tempt me. Moreover, I wish the rest of you guys would just cut it out already so I don't have to hear about it every General Priesthood Session.

[jay santos]

Sometimes I think the "expectations" thing is ridiculous. Men shouldn't look at porn because their wife might feel inadequate or the wife might feel like she can't live up to porn star expectations?

Should my wife not watch GC because she now might think my spirituality is inadequate? Should my son not watch the NBA playoffs because he might start feeling inadequate about his BB skills? Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument.

[myboynoah]

I have no interest in viewing porn.

LOL. Excellent timing.

[myboynoah]

Sometimes I think the "expectations" thing is ridiculous. Men shouldn't look at porn because their wife might feel inadequate or the wife might feel like she can't live up to porn star expectations?

Should my wife not watch GC because she now might think my spirituality is inadequate? Should my son not watch the NBA playoffs because he might start feeling inadequate about his BB skills? Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument.

Take some porn home tonight and use that line of reasoning with your wife. Then report tomorrow (that is if you still have your wanker).

[jay santos]

Take some porn home tonight and use that line of reasoning with your wife. Then report tomorrow (that is if you still have your wanker).

I'm not saying porn is harmless or women should accept it. There are many good arguments against porn. Being scared you don't measure up to expectations is not one of them. Nowhere else in any part of society do we shy away from "greatness" (ok i laughed while i typed that) because we're worried about not measuring up.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Sometimes I think the "expectations" thing is ridiculous. Men shouldn't look at porn because their wife might feel inadequate or the wife might feel like she can't live up to porn star expectations?

Should my wife not watch GC because she now might think my spirituality is inadequate? Should my son not watch the NBA playoffs because he might start feeling inadequate about his BB skills? Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument.

Something that might work for some is this:

When a husband is going to have to "go without" for awhile (business trip, wife's visiting relatives, whatever), a wife could (if she was so inclined) give sexy pictures of herself to her husband to ummmmm.... fill the gap? Then she'd know he was thinking about her (and not some other woman) while ummm.... filling the gap.

Alternativey, camera shy wives could always arrange for a private phone call.

Both of these...gap fillers...keep things in the marriage and wouldn't have to threaten anyone's self-respect (or ability to respect his/her spouse).

[LA Ute]

I have no interest in viewing porn.

Now we need to figure out how to raise everyone else in the Church to your level.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Now we need to figure out how to raise everyone else in the Church to your level.

My weaknesses are legion, but I'm not lying when I say that I haven't really seen pornography in 20 years and have no desire to do so.

[RobinFinderson]

No, you're guessing. Nobody else brought it up.

I was simply using your own definition to refute your suggestion that tolerance is equivalent to approval and therefore implies an open relationship. Anticipation and/or expectation of the act need not imply acceptance or approval. Resignation, perhaps.

I guess I just see any relationship that has reached a sort of equilibrium where it is no longer in danger of imploding as having reached a sort of tacit 'agreement.' It is sort of like having a law on the books that no one is willing to enforce. At some point practice defines reality more than the books. I don't think I'm being inconsistent here. Communication in a relationship isn't just the words. Perhaps we will just disagree on this point.

The truth is, Robin, that from the time you started posting last night you've been using your own reliance on porn to achieve orgasm as evidence that your marriage is somehow more liberated, more progressive, more enlightened, and less boring than the rest of ours. Your early posts dripped with presumption, self-righteousness, and condescension. Yet what it comes down to is that you haven't even bothered to sit down and figure out what it is that you're trying to argue. The only thing you're sure of is that you and Faith are perfectly happy and healthy incorporating the use of porn into your marriage. So perhaps you should skip the generalizations, just state as much outright, and leave it at that.

You've misunderstood my intentions.

1. I am in favor of any relationship that meets the needs of the participants while not hurting innocent bystanders.

2. I've never said that anyone's relationship is boring compared to mine. You've failed reading comprehension there. I've argued that boredom (not porn) is the real killer of relationships, and that the people in a relationship will have to work at cultivating interest in the subtle aspects of their partners if they hope that a relationship will last a long time.

3. I've offered my own relationship as an example, not because it is better than that of anyone, but simply because it is what I know, and it seems to work well for us.

4. Our relationship works well in spite of porn, and not because of it. If anyone tries to tell me that porn destroys relationships, I can say with confidence that it isn't necessarily so. That is the extent of my insight on porn.

5. FOLLOWING your lead in drawing general concepts from your relationship with Flash, I did the same with my relationship with Faith.

6. Yes, my general concepts challenge the appropriateness of your concepts as being general concepts. Specifically, I wouldn't personally feel comfortable needing to feel convinced that I met all of Faith's needs. For either Faith or myself, the idea that we complete ALL of the other person's needs would be a delusion. Maybe that is how the rest of the world works. More folks publicly agreed with you, so maybe you are right. I didn't offer my POV and experience as a form of enlightenment. I offered it as an alternative.

7. I don't claim to know why other people form relationships, and therefore I try not to judge those relationship by the same expectations that I have of my own relationship. You accuse me of being judgmental (presumptuous, self-righteous, and condescending) when one of my primary points is that I am in no position to judge others. I meant it when I said that I was happy that your relationship with Flash works in a different way than my relationship with Faith. It works, and that is good enough.

8. I shared my thoughts on the concept of 'intimacy.' In doing so you presumed that I was inferring something about your own thoughts and feelings about 'intimacy.' I was inferring no such thing. I merely offered it as an additional idea to contribute to the general conversation.

9. I don't 'rely' on porn. I did fine without it for years, and I'm quite certain I could do fine without it again if for some reason it all vanished from the face of the earth.

10. It would be nice if you would be nicer.

[myboynoah]

Having daughters has a way of turning people into feminists, which is another way of saying it makes them realize that the balance of power and opportunity in the world has tilted in favor of men for a long time. I don't think 'men are pigs' is a useful tool for looking at the problems feminism presents, even though in MBN's case it seems to be genuinely heartfelt. We want the best for our children, even as we continue to perpetuate a culture fueled by greed and self interest. So maybe a point like 'men are pigs' is simply a way of acknowledging that in a greedy materialistic society, those people with a bit more power (men in general, and white men in particular) will tend to be a bit more greedy and selfish than the baseline.

I really do think men are pigs. I spend a lot of time with men in all types of environments. I have found that no matter how educated they may be, no matter how far they have progressed professionally, no matter how attentive they may be to their home lives, when you get them with a bunch of other "guys," it is not uncommon for them to comment on the sexual attractiveness of women: women within immediate view, women they all know, celebrity women. I have been stunned by this, especially when it focuses on women at work.

The only group from which I have not heard this conversation has been active LDS men. Not that it might not happen, but like I said before, The Church goes to great lengths to have its men view women as more than just their sexual attractiveness. Not to say that The Church and its culture is perfect in its approach to women in general, but it goes to great lengths to fight the societal objectification of women as primarily sexual beings. As noted before, as a father of teenage daughters, I appreciate that effort very much.

[marsupial]

Sometimes I think the "expectations" thing is ridiculous. Men shouldn't look at porn because their wife might feel inadequate or the wife might feel like she can't live up to porn star expectations?

Should my wife not watch GC because she now might think my spirituality is inadequate? Should my son not watch the NBA playoffs because he might start feeling inadequate about his BB skills? Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument.

So in your opinion, porn is an example of sexual greatness?

[marsupial]

Sometimes I think the "expectations" thing is ridiculous. Men shouldn't look at porn because their wife might feel inadequate or the wife might feel like she can't live up to porn star expectations?

Should my wife not watch GC because she now might think my spirituality is inadequate? Should my son not watch the NBA playoffs because he might start feeling inadequate about his BB skills? Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument.

Also, I was sharing a female perspective--what might go through the mind of a wife who discovers her husband has a porn addiction. It was not necessarily an argument as to why porn is bad.

Porn, like sexual intimacy, arouses feelings and emotions that some women would prefer their husbands save only for them. It can feel like a betrayal. It can make her feel insecure. Your NBA and GC comparisons are ridiculous.

[woot]

While I love RF's overall perspective on marriage, I would not be comfortable with any kind of extra-marital sex without prior consent. My partner and I have discussed the possibility of inviting others into our activities (Maybe someday, but I think we agree that it's too emotionally risky, although she did point out one of her friends to me last night with a nudge and a wink), but I think any kind of affair without this kind of consent has no place in a committed relationship and is likely to destroy trust. I know I would find it very difficult to stay in the relationship were I to discover infidelity, and I assume she feels the same. Perhaps I'm not the most liberal among us on this issue after all.

[DU Ute]

I can't shake this image wile reading RF's posts in this thread.

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[Babs]

10. It would be nice if you would be nicer.

No, Robin. You go back and look. My original response to ER's question was brief, on topic, respectful, and not even addressed to you.

You ask anybody here what the tone of your reply was. You came back with a scathing and incredibly condescending rebuttal to an argument that I wasn't even making. Your discourse in this thread has been haughty, confusing, defensive, and nonsensical. That the closest you have to an ally is santos is quite telling.