Latest Stats and Facts on Punography

[wuapinmon]

I prefer doctors with MDs.

That hurts, Babs.

[ERCougar]

I prefer doctors with MDs.

I'm just being a smart aleck. Just ignore me.

[Babs]

I'm just being a smart aleck. Just ignore me.

We try.

[myboynoah]

Fiyero has a good point that the one is no better than the other, if you're using it to create unrealistic ideals, or using it as a replacement for or escape from what should exist in the marriage.

I agree with this point.

[LA Ute]

My NBA and GC comparisons are perfect as they relate to the stated reason for being against porn as one of feeling low self esteem for not meeting expectations.

I don't know, but several psychotherapists I know professionally tell me that men who have serious porn habits frequently have problems with real sexual intimacy. For whatever that's worth.

The NBA and GC analogies seem to stretch things a little because our psychosexual makeup is different from whatever drives our desire to give excellent talks or be great at hoops.

But at the end of the day, I'm just convinced that viewing porn is not a way to find happiness, and has led to unhappiness for many people. I suspect some here will disagree with me . . . .

[jay santos]

I don't know, but several psychotherapists I know professionally tell me that men who have serious porn habits frequently have problems with real sexual intimacy. For whatever that's worth.

The NBA and GC analogies seem to stretch things a little because our psychosexual makeup is different from whatever drives our desire to give excellent talks or be great at hoops.

But at the end of the day, I'm just convinced that viewing porn is not a way to find happiness, and has led to unhappiness for many people. I suspect some here will disagree with me . . . .

You guys aren't understanding my point.

Let's assume porn is truly evil for a number of reasons.
--causes men to lust after other women
--conditions a man to be stimulated by paper and computers and not the touch taste and smell of a woman
--conditions a man to easy orgasm without any effort in a relationship
--escalates a man's fantasies to an unnatural level
--etc etc etc etc

One reason that I feel is NOT a good reason is this concept that a woman will feel bad that she can't measure up to the women in porn. The girl has too good of a body. Or her blow job technique is too masterful. Whatever. That's not a good reason. Sorry, I don't buy it. If it is, then you have to apply this concept of let's not hurt your feelings by holding you up to any kind of high standard in ANY area.

P.S. I'm not saying women in porn are better than the avg woman because of body, skillz, etc. I'm saying that IF someone else makes that argument against porn it's bogus.

[wuapinmon]

You guys aren't understanding my point.

Let's assume porn is truly evil for a number of reasons.
--causes men to lust after other women
--conditions a man to be stimulated by paper and computers and not the touch taste and smell of a woman
--conditions a man to easy orgasm without any effort in a relationship
--escalates a man's fantasies to an unnatural level
--etc etc etc etc

One reason that I feel is NOT a good reason is this concept that a woman will feel bad that she can't measure up to the women in porn. The girl has too good of a body. Or her blow job technique is too masterful. Whatever. That's not a good reason. Sorry, I don't buy it. If it is, then you have to apply this concept of let's not hurt your feelings by holding you up to any kind of high standard in ANY area.

P.S. I'm not saying women in porn are better than the avg woman because of body, skillz, etc. I'm saying that IF someone else makes that argument against porn it's bogus.

I understand your point.

[myboynoah]

You guys aren't understanding my point.

Let's assume porn is truly evil for a number of reasons.
--causes men to lust after other women
--conditions a man to be stimulated by paper and computers and not the touch taste and smell of a woman
--conditions a man to easy orgasm without any effort in a relationship
--escalates a man's fantasies to an unnatural level
--etc etc etc etc

One reason that I feel is NOT a good reason is this concept that a woman will feel bad that she can't measure up to the women in porn. The girl has too good of a body. Or her blow job technique is too masterful. Whatever. That's not a good reason. Sorry, I don't buy it. If it is, then you have to apply this concept of let's not hurt your feelings by holding you up to any kind of high standard in ANY area.

P.S. I'm not saying women in porn are better than the avg woman because of body, skillz, etc. I'm saying that IF someone else makes that argument against porn it's bogus.

I get your point. I don't understand how you can invalidate how someone might feel, valid or not. A person's uneasiness is that person's uneasiness.

[marsupial]

So is porn okay as long as you don't masturbate?

No, I just don't see how a romantic movie about teenage vampires is equivalent to "Barely Legal Hot Girl on Girl Action."

[LA Ute]

One reason that I feel is NOT a good reason is this concept that a woman will feel bad that she can't measure up to the women in porn. The girl has too good of a body. Or her blow job technique is too masterful. Whatever. That's not a good reason. Sorry, I don't buy it. If it is, then you have to apply this concept of let's not hurt your feelings by holding you up to any kind of high standard in ANY area.

P.S. I'm not saying women in porn are better than the avg woman because of body, skillz, etc. I'm saying that IF someone else makes that argument against porn it's bogus.

Well, we've hashed over this Gordon B. Hinckley talk a dozen times, I think, but this part of that woman's letter haunts me, and always will:

“For many years in our marriage … he was most cruel in many of his demands. I was never good enough for him. … I felt incredibly beaten down at that time to a point of deep depression. … I know now that I was being compared to the latest ‘porn queen.’ …
“We went to counseling one time and … my husband proceeded to rip me apart with his criticism and disdain of me. …

“I could not even get into the car with him after that but walked around the town … for hours, contemplating suicide. [I thought,] ‘Why go on if this is all that my “eternal companion” feels for me?’

“I did go on, but zipped a protective shield around myself. I existed for other reasons than my husband and found joy in my children, in projects and accomplishments that I could do totally on my own. …

A few here want to speculate about the woman's role in her marital problems, but I feel nothing but compassion for her. She can't be the only one who has had the experience she describes. I'm just sayin' . . . .

[Babs]

You guys aren't understanding my point.

Let's assume porn is truly evil for a number of reasons.
--causes men to lust after other women
--conditions a man to be stimulated by paper and computers and not the touch taste and smell of a woman
--conditions a man to easy orgasm without any effort in a relationship
--escalates a man's fantasies to an unnatural level
--etc etc etc etc

wait. so porn is only an issue to the extent to which it affects men?

[RobinFinderson]

The truth is that, like someone here suggested, unless a man has a pre-marital obsession with porn, a man in a healthy marriage is not likely to fall into a secret porn addiction. It's much more likely that a husband is going to get involved with porn when a wife is sexually negligent.

Sexually negligent? Are you suggesting that a person should have sex when s/he doesn't want to, in order to meet the expectations of a partner? Geesh! An obligation to have sex when you don't want to... I'm glad I don't live on that planet.

So I do think that the reasons Soup and I mentioned earlier are true. But a lot of times in addition to the sense of betrayal, there's an enormous sense of guilt and shame for many women who stumble onto a husband's porn stash. The very fact that he turned to porn implicates her. The discovery is a material confirmation of what she already knew deep within -- that she's not meeting his needs. And that's why women go postal when they find their men with porn -- they didn't want to have to face the truth of their own shortcomings.

Since you've already made it clear that you are not speaking from personal experience, I'll hope you won't take it personally when I say, that if a woman feels personal shame for 'sexual negligence,' and feels that she has driven her man to porn, this is a seriously deep and messed up pattern of thinking that NO person should have to endure. You've described a mental disorder.

wait. Why would we? Men whack off because their primary drive is sexual. They seek materials that feed that drive. Women's primary drive is for security and emotional support, so they seek materials that feed that fantasy.

These are gross stereotypes and generalizations.

[Babs]

I'm suggesting that it is reasonable to expect a measure of sexual activity within the context of marriage, and that it is not unheard of for some women to deny their husbands regular activity or any activity whatsoever. The women are neglecting their partners' need. In those cases of sexual dysfunction, the women inevitably become guilt-ridden and ashamed when the men turn elsewhere to feed their natural appetites.

I have said from my first post (and I now very much regret ever getting involved in this thread) that the difference in reaction to porn stems from the differing biological drive in men and women. Yes, the female's primary drive is to seek security. Yes, the male's primary drive is to propagate. Were it any other way the evolutionary process would have been impeded. Are there exceptions? Yes. But it's a generalization because it is generally true. It's just science, Robin. It's just the truth. And I'm surprised that, even as desperate as your rhetoric has become, you would try to suggest otherwise.

[RobinFinderson]

I'm suggesting that it is reasonable to expect a measure of sexual activity within the context of marriage, and that it is not unheard of for some women to deny their husbands regular activity or any activity whatsoever. The women are neglecting their partners' need. In those cases of sexual dysfunction, the women inevitably become guilt-ridden and ashamed when the men turn elsewhere to feed their natural appetites.

I have said from my first post (and I now very much regret ever getting involved in this thread) that the difference in reaction to porn stems from the differing biological drive in men and women. Yes, the female's primary drive is to seek security. Yes, the male's primary drive is to propagate. Were it any other way the evolutionary process would have been impeded. Are there exceptions? Yes. But it's a generalization because it is generally true. It's just science, Robin. It's just the truth. And I'm surprised that, even as desperate as your rhetoric has become, you would try to suggest otherwise.

If a man or woman has some kind of sexual dysfunction, 'negligence' isn't the problem. Describing these problems as such does a terrible disservice to people struggling with sexual dysfunctions. They are already in a difficult situation which may lead them to self-destructive patterns of thought like you describe, but insensitive descriptions like 'sexual negligence' certainly aren't going to help their situation.

If a person is denying a partner sex out of spite or malice, then they probably won't feel a sense of guilt/shame when they discover the porn. Also, the relationship probably won't be long lived.

As for your gross generalizations about male and female sexuality, whatever science supports your claims (is there any?), they are about as useful as race-based intelligence studies.

[marsupial]

Sexually negligent? Are you suggesting that a person should have sex when s/he doesn't want to, in order to meet the expectations of a partner? Geesh! An obligation to have sex when you don't want to... I'm glad I don't live on that planet.



Since you've already made it clear that you are not speaking from personal experience, I'll hope you won't take it personally when I say, that if a woman feels personal shame for 'sexual negligence,' and feels that she has driven her man to porn, this is a seriously deep and messed up pattern of thinking that NO person should have to endure. You've described a mental disorder.



These are gross stereotypes and generalizations.

Is it so unreasonable to expect a spouse to show love to their partner in a meaningful way? To withhold affection for your spouse is cruel.

Marriage is often about doing things you don't feel like doing but doing them anyway because you love your spouse. I am pretty sure danimal never feels like being nice to my mom, but he is anyway and I appreciate it.

If women only had sex when they were horny, some women may never have sex at all. Usually women need a little warm up to get in the mood. I learned early on that even when I think I am too tired or too stressed, I can quickly get in the mood once things get going. And never have I regretted staying up a little bit later or taking time away from my worries to do it. It's always worth it. So yes, if a woman feels guilty about denying her husband her affection, it's merited.