Ward Boundaries Changed

[DWhitmer]

But baptism is a saving ordinance that is about more than just mere repentance, isn't it? I find it highly amusing that you're taking issue with the same person that helped bring us the Book of Mormon (Moroni 8:9) as the person that helped bring us the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C 68:27).

You're missing the point. As the Holy Book of Mormon says, baptism for the remission of sins follows those who have sinned and who need to repent. Just because a kid has 8 birthdays does not make him or her all the sudden full of sin. Imagine interviewing an eight year old with the same questions used in the mission field for real sinners:

Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

•Are you now on probation or parole?
•Have you ever participated in an abortion?
•Have you ever participated in a homosexual relationship?

What do you understand by the following standards?

1.The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman.

Traditionally there has been more than one type of baptism. Joe got into trouble theologically when he conjoined the baptism for sin with the baptism of accepting a covenant like joining a church, or wanting follow to Jesus, etc.

Consider the following - Joe had never been baptized and when he learned that sinners are commanded to repent and be baptized "for the remission of sins" he and Oliver quickly obeyed. Notice that Emma was not commanded to do likewise.

Whitmer said they had nearly 60 members, all baptized, prior to the formation of a new church in 1830 with as head. All members were then baptized AGAIN. Huh??

Are converts or those who are raised in Mormonism given that same two baptism option - for sin or to join a church, i.e. accept a covenant?

Had Joe left off the 8 year mandate he would not have offended God or gone against the Holy Book of Mormon

[Katy Lied]

The Holy Book of Mormon was translated (and I use that loosely) by the gift and power of God, meaning, sure Joe had a gift for scrying, but a special anointing was granted to access a higher dimension where the English translation was already done. Joe dictated, he did not translate.

The process involved humility and prayer, i.e. if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

This is interesting and nicely ties up that problem of how JS translated 2 Nephi exactly in the vernacular of the KJV englishe Book of Isaiah.

Do you believe JS accessed this higher dimension at any other time than when he was reading the English translation of the BOM?

Also, do you believe that baptism for the remission of sin can be undertaken multiple times at the election of the sinner?

Also, is there an order of your multiple baptisms? (ie, first comes the joining ordinance of baptism, then comes baptism for the remission of sins some time later.)

[Indy Coug]

You're missing the point. As the Holy Book of Mormon says, baptism for the remission of sins follows those who have sinned and who need to repent. Just because a kid has 8 birthdays does not make him or her all the sudden full of sin. Imagine interviewing an eight year old with the same questions used in the mission field for real sinners:

Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

•Are you now on probation or parole?
•Have you ever participated in an abortion?
•Have you ever participated in a homosexual relationship?

What do you understand by the following standards?

1.The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman.

Traditionally there have been more than one type of baptism. Joe got into trouble theologically when he conjoined the baptism for sin with the baptism of acceptaning a covenant like joining a church or wanting follow Jesus etc.

Consider the following - Joe had never been baptized and when he learned that sinners are commanded to repent and be baptized "for the remission of sins" he and Oliver quickly obeyed. Notice though, Emma was neither encourage nor commanded to be also.

Whitmer said they had near 60 members, all baptized prior to their being a church. After Joe started his church, they were all baptized AGAIN. Huh??

Are converts or those who are raised in Mormonism given the same option - baptism to join their church and one for the remission of sins? Had Joe left off the 8 year old mandate he would not have offended God. No wonder though, he rarely quoted from the holy record and suppose he forgot what Mormon taught.

So God sat on the Book of Mormon for 1,400 years and then hitched his wagon to the wrong guy. So much for omniscience.

[CardiacCoug]

Interesting perspective, DWhit.

I was aware of David Whitmer and read this a while back but didn't know there were modern-day Whitmerites around.

[DWhitmer]

This is interesting and nicely ties up that problem of how JS translated 2 Nephi exactly in the vernacular of the KJV englishe Book of Isaiah.

Actually the KJV is in the venacular of the older Tyndale translation which Royal Skousen discovered. Joe did not use a Bible during dictation, there is not way he could have read it in that dark hat.

The Holy Book of Mormon has proven to be more accurate than the JKV in several places which critics are befuddled to explain. Here's one:

KJV - Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows. (Isaiah 53:4)

Matthew - Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. (Matthew 8:17)

Alma - He will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. (Alma 7:11)

Masoretic Hebrew - Surely he has borne our pains and sicknesses. (Isaiah 53:4)

The thing that personally astounds me is all that preaching about repenting and following Jesus. Joe never preached a day in his life prior to dictating that record. Critics are likewise at a loss to say where he plagiarized the preaching.

Do you believe JS accessed this higher dimension at any other time than when he was reading the English translation of the BOM?

Of course God anwers prayer, but he was not called to be the leader of a people and therefore did not retain use of the U&T like prophets of old.

Personally I respect the revelations pertaining to the Holy Book of Mormon and encourage avoiding or the use of disernment on the rest. Whitmer said they went off track because they ignored what the "fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ," i.e. the Holy Book of Mormon. [You are justified in ignoring the D&C entirely purely on the basis that Joe retroactively altered the text in significant ways, as if Jesus made a mistake and Joe had to go back and remove entire paragraphs and add words like "priesthood" "church" etc. Oh, that word "reformation" that he removed, I find said a lot.]

[Viking]

the Holy Book of Mormon. lol

[DWhitmer]

So God sat on the Book of Mormon for 1,400 years and then hitched his wagon to the wrong guy. So much for omniscience.

David said it was God's wisdom to use him, so there would be no question who the record was from, so God would get the credit, not Joe! Then modern apologist like Sperry, et. al. came along and said "that bad grammar is because Joe used his own words" giving Joe, not God the credit. Thank goodness Dr. Royal Skousen came along and said:

Joseph Smith is not the author of the Book of Mormon, nor is he actually the translator. [And the so called "bad grammar" is true to Hebrew.] (Royal Skousen)

Interesting perspective, DWhit.

I was aware of David Whitmer and read this a while back but didn't know there were modern-day Whitmerites around.

He had three publications:

• A Proclamation (very short)
• An Address to Believers in the [Holy] Book of Mormon (slightly longer)
• An Address to All Christians (quite lengthy)

And many newspaper correspondences and interviews. He battled it out with Joe's son in the RLDS newspaper. Amazing how much information they allowed in there from David.

[Viking]

I've always thought Whitmer one of the least credible of the HOLY BOM witnesses. The dude ran a religion that used the HOLY BOM as canon.

[wuapinmon]

I find your use of "Joe" off-putting. He was called Brother Joseph by members. Joe was usually used by those who sought to discredit him. Given that it's impossible that he gave you permission to use his familiar name, how about stick with Joseph or Smith? Joe seems like a purposeful attempt to annoy.

[DWhitmer]

I've always thought Whitmer one of the least credible of the HOLY BOM witnesses. The dude ran a religion that used the HOLY BOM as canon.

Not really. God told David to separate from the Mormons and return to how they were pre-1830, i.e. pre Sidney Rigdon, et. al. additions found in the D&C. He was true to his testimony and the authority God gave him to testify of the record.

[DWhitmer]

I find your use of "Joe" off-putting. He was called Brother Joseph by members. Joe was usually used by those who sought to discredit him. Given that it's impossible that he gave you permission to use his familiar name, how about stick with Joseph or Smith? Joe seems like a purposeful attempt to annoy.

It's not my intention to disparage. Early records show he was referred to as "Joe" by family, friends and others. Personally, after studying his life, I do find the use of "Joe" to be a better fit. If you need some examples let me know.

[wuapinmon]

It's not my intention to disparage. Early records show he was referred to as "Joe" by family, friends and others. Personally, after studying his life, I do find the use of "Joe" to be a better fit. If you need some examples let me know.

It's a simple suggestion, and I'm sure that others here feel the same way.

[Viking]

Not really. God told David to separate from the Mormons and return to how they were pre-1830, i.e. pre Sidney Rigdon, et. al. additions found in the D&C. He was true to his testimony and the authority God gave him to testify of the record.

Nonsense. God told David nothing.

[DWhitmer]

It's a simple suggestion, and I'm sure that others here feel the same way.

I used to feel that way, but honestly, if you count the number of disparagers who use the name "Joseph" compared to the few who used "Joe" you would see that you all should switch back to "Joe."

Why does it bother people to learn that those meeting him for the first time thought "Joe" suited him better than "Joseph"?

[DWhitmer]

Nonsense. God told David nothing.

Not only did God tell him to separate, David said the pattern was not new saying God told Lehi to leave the Jerusalem church and Alma, Mormon, Moroni, the Three Nephites, etc.

Why is it difficult to grasp? God said the entire Mormon Church was cursed for not doing what the Holy Book of Mormon says, so why wouldn't you want to get out from that curse?