Ward Boundaries Changed

[creekster]

Do you believe that Nephi was a real person? Just curious.

Of course he's real! He invented tater tots!

[DWhitmer]

God picked a number and we're going with it.

What would you propose otherwise? It's a standard, not a mandate. Nothing is going to happen to someone if they want to wait or the child wants to wait. There is no penalty.

There are more baptisms than one, so you are limited in that regard.

Do you believe that Nephi was a real person? Just curious.

Which one? The one who appeared to Joe?

[Portland Ute]

There are more baptisms than one, so you are limited in that regard.



Which one? The one who appeared to Joe?

Why don't you answer the question? Why do you believe in the Book of Mormon? What are your beliefs?

Rather than doing a drive-by attack on Mormonism/the LDS church, why don't you lay out what YOU believe so there can be some discussion, debate and, hopefully, understanding?

Your way of doing this is a bit gutless.

[DWhitmer]

Why don't you answer the question? Why do you believe in the Book of Mormon? What are your beliefs?

Rather than doing a drive-by attack on Mormonism/the LDS church, why don't you lay out what YOU believe so there can be some discussion, debate and, hopefully, understanding?

Your way of doing this is a bit gutless.

If I share too much I'll accused of trying to sway others. If you lead I will follow. The long and the short of my view hinges on the Holy Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible.

Joe never received a mandate to start a church, he was only tasked with bring forth the Holy Book of Mormon. Had he been ordained to be a prophet/leader he would have retained use of the Urim and Thummim.

Mandating an age when all people should repent is ludicrous, no offense.

Here is what the D&C says reg. child baptism:

41 And you must preach unto the world, saying: You must repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ;
42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability. (D&C 18, June 1829 - correct principle, no age mandate = GOOD)

70 Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name.
71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance [sin].
72 Baptism is to be administered in the following manner unto all those who repent— (D&C 20, April 1830) [Baptism of repentance is required to become a member of his church = CONFUSED]

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.
27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.
28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord. (D&C 68, Nov. 1831) [2 yrs later the repentance/baptismal age was given = BAD!]

I hope that clarifies where/why I had to draw the line.

[SoonerCoug]

Joe never received a mandate to start a church, he was only tasked with bring forth the Holy Book of Mormon. Had he been ordained to be a prophet/leader he would have retained use of the Urim and Thummim.

I am so happy that you are on this site. You are a perfect example of the absurdity of certainty when it comes to matters of faith. You are just as dogmatic as many Mormons, but you have your own nutcase twist on everything. It's fantastic. Thank you.

[DWhitmer]

I am so happy that you are on this site. You are a perfect example of the absurdity of certainty when it comes to matters of faith. You are just as dogmatic as many Mormons, but you have your own nutcase twist on everything. It's fantastic. Thank you.

Are you unable to suspend disbelief?

[SoonerCoug]

Are you unable to suspend disbelief?

LOL.

[Pheidippides]

LOL.

This is gonna be great.

[Uncle Ted]

Joe never received a mandate to start a church, he was only tasked with bring forth the Holy Book of Mormon. Had he been ordained to be a prophet/leader he would have retained use of the Urim and Thummim.

I was under the impression that Joe used a seer stone and a hat to translate the Holy Book of Mormon because the Urim and Thummim was taken away (shortly after the 116 pages were lost) and never returned. The seer stone that was used was found in a well that Joe was digging. Here is what the other David Whitmer said about the translation process:

I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.

So the Holy Book of Mormon that we have wasn't translated by the Urim and Thummim but by a seer stone (found in a well) and a hat. Sorry, I just wanted to clear that up. Go on.

[Viking]

If I share too much I'll accused of trying to sway others. If you lead I will follow. The long and the short of my view hinges on the Holy Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible.

Joe never received a mandate to start a church, he was only tasked with bring forth the Holy Book of Mormon. Had he been ordained to be a prophet/leader he would have retained use of the Urim and Thummim.

Mandating an age when all people should repent is ludicrous, no offense.

Here is what the D&C says reg. child baptism:

41 And you must preach unto the world, saying: You must repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ;
42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability. (D&C 18, June 1829 - correct principle, no age mandate = GOOD)

70 Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name.
71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance [sin].
72 Baptism is to be administered in the following manner unto all those who repent— (D&C 20, April 1830) [Baptism of repentance is required to become a member of his church = CONFUSED]

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.
27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.
28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord. (D&C 68, Nov. 1831) [2 yrs later the repentance/baptismal age was given = BAD!]

I hope that clarifies where/why I had to draw the line.

Are you a polygamist?

[Indy Coug]

If I share too much I'll accused of trying to sway others. If you lead I will follow. The long and the short of my view hinges on the Holy Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible.

Joe never received a mandate to start a church, he was only tasked with bring forth the Holy Book of Mormon. Had he been ordained to be a prophet/leader he would have retained use of the Urim and Thummim.

Mandating an age when all people should repent is ludicrous, no offense.

Here is what the D&C says reg. child baptism:

41 And you must preach unto the world, saying: You must repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ;
42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability. (D&C 18, June 1829 - correct principle, no age mandate = GOOD)

70 Every member of the church of Christ having children is to bring them unto the elders before the church, who are to lay their hands upon them in the name of Jesus Christ, and bless them in his name.
71 No one can be received into the church of Christ unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability before God, and is capable of repentance [sin].
72 Baptism is to be administered in the following manner unto all those who repent— (D&C 20, April 1830) [Baptism of repentance is required to become a member of his church = CONFUSED]

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.
27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.
28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord. (D&C 68, Nov. 1831) [2 yrs later the repentance/baptismal age was given = BAD!]

I hope that clarifies where/why I had to draw the line.

But baptism is a saving ordinance that is about more than just mere repentance, isn't it? I find it highly amusing that you're taking issue with the same person that helped bring us the Book of Mormon (Moroni 8:9) as the person that helped bring us the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C 68:27).

[DWhitmer]

So the Holy Book of Mormon that we have wasn't translated by the Urim and Thummim but by a seer stone (found in a well) and a hat. Sorry, I just wanted to clear that up. Go on.

The Holy Book of Mormon was translated (and I use that loosely) by the gift and power of God, meaning, sure Joe had a gift for scrying, but a special anointing was granted to access a higher dimension where the English translation was already done. Joe dictated, he did not translate.

The process involved humility and prayer, i.e. if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

[DWhitmer]

Are you a polygamist?

I like your thinking.

I believe as the holy record does - it is an abomination before God. Anyone claiming spiritual insights should have discerned that early on. Joe should have never taken advantage of girls in his house and he should not have justified by tying polygamy to (Christian) salvation/(Mormon) exaltation.

In fact, no polygamist can hold a church office (which has been ignored):

Bishops, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:2

Elders, the husband of one wife -Titus 1:6

Deacons, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:12

[Viking]

I like your thinking.

I believe as the holy record does - it is an abomination before God. Anyone claiming spiritual insights should have discerned that early on. Joe should have never taken advantage of girls in his house and he should not have justified by tying polygamy to (Christian) salvation/(Mormon) exaltation.

In fact, no polygamist can hold a church office (which has been ignored):

Bishops, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:2

Elders, the husband of one wife -Titus 1:6

Deacons, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:12

ok, we have a troll. go eat shit.

[Uncle Ted]

The Holy Book of Mormon was translated (and I use that loosely) by the gift and power of God, meaning, sure Joe had a gift for scrying, but a special anointing was granted to access a higher dimension where the English translation was already done. Joe dictated, he did not translate.

The process involved humility and prayer, i.e. if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

So why did Joseph need the U & T to "translate" the first 116 pages if the translation was already done. Couldn't he just have used the stone he found in the well to do those pages too?