Gay and Mormon: BYU hosted panel for gay BYU students

[Non Sequitur]

I guess I just don't see where anyone here is saying BYU's actions constitute anything more than a baby step. We can be disappointed that the institution isn't progressing as fast as some would like it to progress, or we can be pleased with the fact that there is some progress, albeit slow. I choose the latter. Notably, those who choose the former would likely be the harshest critics if BYU hadn't allowed this to happen.

The students within the institution might be progressing, but I doubt the institution is really progressing. I think they're just powerless to respond in the manner in which they would like to respond. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps BKP and the rest are actually thrilled that tolerance is now flowing at the Lord's university.

[Portland Ute]

The students within the institution might be progressing, but I doubt the institution is really progressing. I think they're just powerless to respond in the manner in which they would like to respond. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps BKP and the rest are actually thrilled that tolerance is now flowing at the Lord's university.

Perhaps you are right and the institutions (BYU and the LDS Church) aren't progressing, at least in philosophy. But, they are progressing in action (or inaction).

The situation between membership (gays included) and the LDS church is "progressing."

Even if that progress is born out of, as you imply, the inability of the Church to respond in a manner which they would like. The inability or powerlessness is a sign that the membership is agitating, has power and is forcing change.

Or, maybe the institutions themselves are seeing things in a different light, too.

The "why" is really irrelevant, IMO. The evidence is there that things are occurring that would never have been imaginable even 5 or 10 years ago. That is progress.

I see this kind of thing and I wonder if the LDS church won't be significantly different in a generation. These people are the leadership of the future and, if not, the fact this is *ACCEPTED* on BYU's campus sends a message that is clearly different than the message that was sent to students and LDS members 10 years ago. That message shapes the thinking of the average member and BYU student. The seeds have been planted, so to speak.

[OhioBlue]

The students within the institution might be progressing, but I doubt the institution is really progressing. I think they're just powerless to respond in the manner in which they would like to respond.

I've seen this sentiment a few times in this thread. Make no mistake, BYU is anything but powerless with these kinds of things and has (quietly) shut down plenty of efforts related to this topic in the past. I know this from personal experience.

The fact that this event went largely as pllanned (and that USGA continues to meet) is not a passive allowance on the institution's part.

[lambdacoug]

Interesting that you ex-mos feel the need to take on the mothering role for the poor saps that remain members. Your feelings that people would be better off outside the Church are touching.

Every person is on their own personal journey. Fundamentally, it doesn't matter that the ex-mos or the progressives or the orthodox are right. It matters that they find happiness without a group pushing them or cheering them in one direction or another.

Your post sure comes off as being some omniscient intellect floating above the issue. The truth is, you are in the middle of it just like the rest of it, you are just playing a different game or on a different team.

It does matter. It matters because if people are being misled and taught things that are not right, it will motivate their actions based on misleading and wrong information. I agree that it matters that one finds happiness on one's own terms. Without people out there saying "X is wrong, Y is better", how many people would never consider that they may be wrong and look elsewhere? It took someone else that I knew while I was mormon, telling me that mormonism isn't what we'd been taught, before I really started my active journey out of the church.

[UtahDan]

[YOUTUBE]Ym0jXg-hKCI&sns[/YOUTUBE]

[jay santos]

If you can't be satisfied with slow change, you will be very frustrated being part of this church. I think this event is a huge positive.

[Donuthole]

Then why did this post get everyone's dander up?



Solon can defend himself, but I'm just not sure why everyone's jumping on him over that. I think he's dead on--bravo to the students, both the ones who attended and the ones who spoke. Definitely encouraging to see that level of interest and courage. The institution? Well, I guess I'm glad they didn't suspend everyone and turn out the lights. Rad.

I think it was the drunken father analogy that got people excited, not only because it's a poor analogy, but because it is intentionally inflammatory. Solon went fishing and got what he wanted. I stand by my statement that nobody has (genuinely) asserted that this is anything more than a small step for BYU.

[Non Sequitur]

The "why" is really irrelevant, IMO. The evidence is there that things are occurring that would never have been imaginable even 5 or 10 years ago. That is progress.

I applaud the fact that attitudes are changing. It's a great thing. But there is progress and there is progress. This will eventually resolve itself like every other social issue on which the Church has been on the wrong side...it will reach a point where the Church's position is simply untenable and a revelation will occur. Yeah, that's progress I suppose, but is it really progress?

[ERCougar]

Perhaps you are right and the institutions (BYU and the LDS Church) aren't progressing, at least in philosophy. But, they are progressing in action (or inaction).

The situation between membership (gays included) and the LDS church is "progressing."

Even if that progress is born out of, as you imply, the inability of the Church to respond in a manner which they would like. The inability or powerlessness is a sign that the membership is agitating, has power and is forcing change.

Or, maybe the institutions themselves are seeing things in a different light, too.

The "why" is really irrelevant, IMO. The evidence is there that things are occurring that would never have been imaginable even 5 or 10 years ago. That is progress.

I see this kind of thing and I wonder if the LDS church won't be significantly different in a generation. These people are the leadership of the future and, if not, the fact this is *ACCEPTED* on BYU's campus sends a message that is clearly different than the message that was sent to students and LDS members 10 years ago. That message shapes the thinking of the average member and BYU student. The seeds have been planted, so to speak.

I've seen this sentiment a few times in this thread. Make no mistake, BYU is anything but powerless with these kinds of things and has (quietly) shut down plenty of efforts related to this topic in the past. I know this from personal experience.

The fact that this event went largely as pllanned (and that USGA continues to meet) is not a passive allowance on the institution's part.

Yes, BYU should get credit for at least passively sanctioning the event. But they are a freaking UNIVERSITY--the bar for tolerance should be a little higher than your average ignorant redneck. I'm guessing this is why it bothers people in academics more than others.

I'm grouping these two because they get at the heart of my frustration on this issue. I see a lot of really good people in the Church. These people put a lot of energy into trying to do the right thing. They listen to their leaders and try to follow them. On the other side of things, I see an organization that seems to always be behind. I do think the Church will be different in a generation or two. But what frustrates me to no end is that the cart seems to continually be leading the horse. These good people who listen to their leaders--they're the same who would embrace a message on tolerance that STILL is left unsaid while we focus on the number of earrings a girl should have.

[Portland Ute]

It does matter. It matters because if people are being misled and taught things that are not right, it will motivate their actions based on misleading and wrong information. I agree that it matters that one finds happiness on one's own terms. Without people out there saying "X is wrong, Y is better", how many people would never consider that they may be wrong and look elsewhere? It took someone else that I knew while I was mormon, telling me that mormonism isn't what we'd been taught, before I really started my active journey out of the church.

WTH? Explain how the highlighted portion results from progress?

Bottom line is your post makes you sound bitter because the church might change and not as many people will feel the need to leave. Boo hoo for you.

Not everyone needs to take YOUR journey out of the church.

[Tim]

[YOUTUBE]Ym0jXg-hKCI&sns[/YOUTUBE]

Fantastic!

[Surfah]

Solon I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts on this board. I don't disagree with your point--as (relatively) significant as this event was, BYU remains light years away.

The perspective I want to add to this debate, though, is the significance of this event for the LGBT students who are at BYU. I don't know if the LDS church will ever be a haven for those with sexual orientations different from the norm, and therefore my focus is less on the larger culture and more on those individuals who choose to stay in that culture and belief system. Don't underestimate the impact of this BYU-sanctioned, public, packed forum for individuals who otherwise live daily in internal conflict, shame, intense loneliness, or pain. Or even those who are more comfortable in their sexual orientation but feel they have no way to reach out to similar others on campus.

I get what you're saying. As good as it felt to be there a couple nights ago, those positive feelings largely emerge from a garden bed of primarily negative ones. At some level, they are inseparable.

But for the individual--if not for the institution--this was a huge success. For the institution/culture, this forum and the allowance of a LGB organization on campus (USGA) is at least a couple first steps in the right direction.

.02

I liked your $0.02.

[tooblue]

Solon I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts on this board. I don't disagree with your point--as (relatively) significant as this event was, BYU remains light years away.

The perspective I want to add to this debate, though, is the significance of this event for the LGBT students who are at BYU. I don't know if the LDS church will ever be a haven for those with sexual orientations different from the norm, and therefore my focus is less on the larger culture and more on those individuals who choose to stay in that culture and belief system. Don't underestimate the impact of this BYU-sanctioned, public, packed forum for individuals who otherwise live daily in internal conflict, shame, intense loneliness, or pain. Or even those who are more comfortable in their sexual orientation but feel they have no way to reach out to similar others on campus.

I get what you're saying. As good as it felt to be there a couple nights ago, those positive feelings largely emerge from a garden bed of primarily negative ones. At some level, they are inseparable.

But for the individual--if not for the institution--this was a huge success. For the institution/culture, this forum and the allowance of a LGB organization on campus (USGA) is at least a couple first steps in the right direction.

.02

Thank you for your thoughts. Well said.

[Non Sequitur]

It does matter. It matters because if people are being misled and taught things that are not right, it will motivate their actions based on misleading and wrong information. I agree that it matters that one finds happiness on one's own terms. Without people out there saying "X is wrong, Y is better", how many people would never consider that they may be wrong and look elsewhere? It took someone else that I knew while I was mormon, telling me that mormonism isn't what we'd been taught, before I really started my active journey out of the church.

That's an extremely arrogant position. Who are you to say what is better? There might be issues with claims made by the Church, but that doesn't make it the "wrong" institution, and it doesn't mean people should start looking for a better one. I look at my family friends in the Church, and they are happy. It doesn't work for me, but it works for them. Why should they abandon it and look elsewhere?

[TripletDaddy]

[YOUTUBE]Ym0jXg-hKCI&sns[/YOUTUBE]

This is a really great video. Again, these students are pioneers. Change will come. Slowly, but surely.

I was unaware that the school changed its policy in 2010 about the open advocacy of homosexuality. Did anyone catch that in the video? I suppose it is that rule that now allows the sort of forum we saw this week on campus?

The branding of the video was interesting. Many of the kids were wearing BYU gear or standing in front of BYU iconography.