Gay and Mormon: BYU hosted panel for gay BYU students

[byu71]

"equal to or greater"

I would agree with this thought. Equaling it to adultery does go over the top, IMHO.

[TripletDaddy]

Progressives v. Exmos. The debate in this thread is playing out SO many different places.

Is Solon an Ex-Mo? That would make sense for reasons you described in your post.

[San Juan Sun]

Here's a gem straight out of the manual:

It's been discussed elsewhere, but I think we Mormons are slowly becoming aware of the differences between counsel from a prophet and actual doctrine. While the Kimball quote you mention might be from a correlated document, the next correlated document may not include it. I expect that the Church will continue to slowly prune the branches of opinion and rhetoric posing as doctrine.

[SeattleUte]

Is Solon an Ex-Mo? That would make sense for reasons you described in your post.

What are the choices counselor?

[CardiacCoug]

So they are treated like someone having heterosexual sex outside the bonds of marriage? Wow, that's really out there.

There is nowhere in the manual where they even acknowledge what Oaks has been saying since circa 1995 -- that there is nothing wrong with same gender attraction, only sexual activity outside of marriage.

There are plenty of instances like this one where they refer to the sin of "homosexuality" in a way that would be pretty damn confusing for a 16-year old kid.

I don't know why the Church has not updated the way it teaches its young men about homosexuality to align with current (or even 20-year old) doctrine. Probably it's just because as an institution the Church really doesn't care about gay young people.

[San Juan Sun]

Probably it's just because as an institution the Church really doesn't care about gay young people.

That's exactly it.

[wuapinmon]

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=54720

[ERCougar]

Can everyone step back from the emotion and the metaphors for a little bit and look at what happened here?

Several homosexual students publicly answered questions honestly, yet guardedly with respect to any doctrinal issues, about their experience. The hall was filled with people who respectfully listened. Are these gay students to be applauded? Absolutely, as are the students who listened and accepted them.

On the other hand, what did BYU do? Let them talk? I guess that's laudable, but really, what else were they supposed to do? They could shut it down, but that would likely make news and become a Rodinesque black eye. This would have only happened somewhere else, and under someone else's control.

So yes, I'm encouraged that gay students feel that they can tell their stories, and I'm even more encouraged that there are a group of students that are interesting in hearing and understanding them. But in the end, all this shows me is that yet again, the young people are ahead of the institution. How did the institution take anything other than what can at best be considered a baby step (if that)?

[SeattleUte]

Exactly, ER. ER's post is a dagger, a thread killer.

[Donuthole]

Can everyone step back from the emotion and the metaphors for a little bit and look at what happened here?

Several homosexual students publicly answered questions honestly, yet guardedly with respect to any doctrinal issues, about their experience. The hall was filled with people who respectfully listened. Are these gay students to be applauded? Absolutely, as are the students who listened and accepted them.

On the other hand, what did BYU do? Let them talk? I guess that's laudable, but really, what else were they supposed to do? They could shut it down, but that would likely make news and become a Rodinesque black eye. This would have only happened somewhere else, and under someone else's control.

So yes, I'm encouraged that gay students feel that they can tell their stories, and I'm even more encouraged that there are a group of students that are interesting in hearing and understanding them. But in the end, all this shows me is that yet again, the young people are ahead of the institution. How did the institution take anything other than what can at best be considered a baby step (if that)?

I guess I just don't see where anyone here is saying BYU's actions constitute anything more than a baby step. We can be disappointed that the institution isn't progressing as fast as some would like it to progress, or we can be pleased with the fact that there is some progress, albeit slow. I choose the latter. Notably, those who choose the former would likely be the harshest critics if BYU hadn't allowed this to happen.

[Solon]

Also, the students haven't spoke, they have spoken.

LOL. That wasn't the only typo in that post. I think there's an unbalanced clause as well.

Yes, BYU disappoints and embarrasses me from time to time. Sometimes badly. Same with the church.

But God help me, I still love them both.

I respect this about you and others, JL. I'm glad so many here see hope on the horizon through this event.

I don't.
I'll be happy if it's there, but I don't see it.

[CardiacCoug]

That's exactly it.

Please provide evidence that the LDS Church has made reassuring and supporting young LDS men and women with "same gender attraction" a high priority or that this is something the Church cares about at all. They haven't even updated the manuals on the topic of homosexuality to 1990s era Church positions. They still have quotes from the 60s and 70s.

[ERCougar]

I guess I just don't see where anyone here is saying BYU's actions constitute anything more than a baby step. We can be disappointed that the institution isn't progressing as fast as some would like it to progress, or we can be pleased with the fact that there is some progress, albeit slow. I choose the latter. Notably, those who choose the former would likely be the harshest critics if BYU hadn't allowed this to happen.

Then why did this post get everyone's dander up?

I agree that it's a big development at the byu, but the fact that we're doing cartwheels to celebrate a panel like this shows just how backwards the institution is/has been.
.
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In the meantime, I'm pleased with any progress. So, bravo to these students. I just hope dearly that they haven't ruined their lives in Provo for such a small step.

Solon can defend himself, but I'm just not sure why everyone's jumping on him over that. I think he's dead on--bravo to the students, both the ones who attended and the ones who spoke. Definitely encouraging to see that level of interest and courage. The institution? Well, I guess I'm glad they didn't suspend everyone and turn out the lights. Rad.

[Portland Ute]

The are a lot more skeptical about whether change can happen because it is not easy to point to concrete changes yet. They also feel that some of the things the progressives are excited about actually create a false sense of hope for people who would really be happier and better off if they just got it over with and left (if possible).


What it fundamentally comes down to is who is right about how much the church can or will change.

Interesting that you ex-mos feel the need to take on the mothering role for the poor saps that remain members. Your feelings that people would be better off outside the Church are touching.

Every person is on their own personal journey. Fundamentally, it doesn't matter that the ex-mos or the progressives or the orthodox are right. It matters that they find happiness without a group pushing them or cheering them in one direction or another.

Your post sure comes off as being some omniscient intellect floating above the issue. The truth is, you are in the middle of it just like the rest of it, you are just playing a different game or on a different team.

[OhioBlue]

I respect this about you and others, JL. I'm glad so many here see hope on the horizon through this event.

I don't.
I'll be happy if it's there, but I don't see it.

Solon I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts on this board. I don't disagree with your point--as (relatively) significant as this event was, BYU remains light years away.

The perspective I want to add to this debate, though, is the significance of this event for the LGBT students who are at BYU. I don't know if the LDS church will ever be a haven for those with sexual orientations different from the norm, and therefore my focus is less on the larger culture and more on those individuals who choose to stay in that culture and belief system. Don't underestimate the impact of this BYU-sanctioned, public, packed forum for individuals who otherwise live daily in internal conflict, shame, intense loneliness, or pain. Or even those who are more comfortable in their sexual orientation but feel they have no way to reach out to similar others on campus.

I get what you're saying. As good as it felt to be there a couple nights ago, those positive feelings largely emerge from a garden bed of primarily negative ones. At some level, they are inseparable.

But for the individual--if not for the institution--this was a huge success. For the institution/culture, this forum and the allowance of a LGB organization on campus (USGA) is at least a couple first steps in the right direction.

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