Gay and Mormon: BYU hosted panel for gay BYU students

[Northwestcoug]

If you can't be satisfied with slow change, you will be very frustrated being part of this church. I think this event is a huge positive.

I applaud the fact that attitudes are changing. It's a great thing. But there is progress and there is progress. This will eventually resolve itself like every other social issue on which the Church has been on the wrong side...it will reach a point where the Church's position is simply untenable and a revelation will occur. Yeah, that's progress I suppose, but is it really progress?

I see a lot of really good people in the Church. These people put a lot of energy into trying to do the right thing. They listen to their leaders and try to follow them. On the other side of things, I see an organization that seems to always be behind. I do think the Church will be different in a generation or two. But what frustrates me to no end is that the cart seems to continually be leading the horse. These good people who listen to their leaders--they're the same who would embrace a message on tolerance that STILL is left unsaid while we focus on the number of earrings a girl should have.

Man, my feelings have been back and forth on this. Like most people, I felt a lot of hope reading the live blog of the event. I initially felt that this was going to be huge, that significant change was possible and just on the horizon. Then the next day understanding that my hopeful feelings were mainly for the students, and realizing that BYU was still controlling the narrative of this event (mainly by the fact that the students were not allowed to discuss doctrinal issues). Then swinging back a bit after group pile on of Solon's remarks, kind of feeling that we're all in the same boat (more or less), acknowledging that the event was huge for the students, not so much for the institution.

I think Jay and others have stated perfectly why I have ambiguious feelings. This forum is led by a bunch of people in the cart want to lead the horse. The institution has a long history of changing only when forced to. I think most of us believe that change is inevitable (and very much needed). Therefore, people who want change now become very frustrated when the institution refuses to address these concerns in a meaningful way. We know (or at least hope) that the church and BYU will change its stance on a number of issues in the future. Our history has clearly shown that we are constantly migrating toward the societal norm. Why can't it speed up???

[DU Ute]

For all those celebrating this, I agree that it is an important step. However, it is interesting to note that nothing about this event has been reported on by the Deseret News or KSL. On the day the Des News could have reported on the event they instead went with this. Nice to have a reminder that religious folks are the ones that are really being repressed and discriminated against.

It's silly to talk about the message this sent to the members, 90% of members in Utah will probably never hear anything about this. Sorry if I side a bit more with Solon on this one.

[hopfrog]

I left the church because of a pamphlet written by a prophet or apostle (cannot remember the dude's name) in which the gay person, each and every time, was referred to as "the pervert." My bishopric had just sent me to LDS therapy to help me become straight. I was having a brief love affair with a lesbian transsexual at the time, and she came a couple times to attend my young adults Sunday school class that I was teaching, in which she started to praise the glory of goddess worship and lesbian sex. My bishop called me into his office and asked me if I was sleeping with this woman, and I said, "Yes, but we're both gay so it's cool." Going through "therapy" convinced me to leave the church. I attended my excommunication court wearing very faggy clothes, lipstick and eyeliner. I sat there, with those three rows of white guys all frowning at me, and I just wanted to laugh. When I was asked, "Brother Pugmire, are you gay?" I replied "Yes!" in my finest Garbo impersonation.

Do I feel the church has progressed? Oh honey! I feel accepted as a member of the church by almost everyone in the wards I have attended (there are some whom my radar alerts me as being extremely uptight). But there are moments when I am reminded that I am the ever Outsider in the church. Once there was, in the foyer, along with the morning programs, a wee pamphlet about "Protecting traditional marriage." In one Priesthood class the Brother giving the lesson called gay adoption one of the greatest evils of all time; I didn't think it would do any good to describe to him the extremely happy and healthy gay families with whom I had been acquainted.

I was far away from the church when the ban on blacks holding priesthood was lifted, so I don't know if there were any tell-tale signs that such a radical change was forthcoming. I wonder how many members fell away from the church because that ban was lifted. I don't expect any such thing to happen regarding gay marriage during my lifetime.

Growing up as a Latter-day Saint teenager in the 1960's instilled within me a kind of shame at being LDS. I attended a high school with a largely black student body, and more than once I heard in classrooms black kids dis the church because it says that black folk are the children of Cane and thus cannot hold the priesthood. At the same time, I had this weird protective feeling toward the church, which has stayed with me and intensified as I've grown old. The crap I had to listen to when I returned to the church, the lies about my religion from people who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about.

I applaud any steps that the church takes in making its gay members feel at home in their religion. I love the church and cherish its gospel, and I won't allow anything or anyone to take that from me, even if I get exed again for my punk drag queen attire (which these days I only wear during my YouTube videos or when I go out to promote my books). I've had the experience of being away from the church for twenty-five years, for exploring so many other religions and lifestyles. Nothing in life makes me as happy as does being a Mormon. I got that LDS DNA up the arse, baby.

[UtahDan]

That video sort of made me turn the corner a little in my thinking. I still think that the church is not capable of changing in a way that will be meaningful enough for it to be a healthy place for gays to be. With that said, the crisis of gay LDS kids and young adults killing themselves is real and if they don't find at least some support in their early twenties and in college, some of them aren't going to live long enough to make it to a stage of maturity where they can decide what direction their lives will take with respect to the church. So whether they can actually ever attain whatever their reformationist goals (I think they cannot) is less important to me than the fact that groups such as this provide a port in the storm. From that perspective, I think that them raising their profile is very important.

[lambdacoug]

That's an extremely arrogant position. Who are you to say what is better? There might be issues with claims made by the Church, but that doesn't make it the "wrong" institution, and it doesn't mean people should start looking for a better one. I look at my family friends in the Church, and they are happy. It doesn't work for me, but it works for them. Why should they abandon it and look elsewhere?

I don't subscribe to the view that there is one right way for everyone. Its for each person to decide for themselves what is better, but that isn't the same as saying that it doesn't matter who is right, or that all ways are equal. Which is what I was trying to say, though admittedly, poorly.

If the church continues to defend its claims that have issues, then I absolutely think people should look elsewhere. There is a difference between making a mistaken claim, admitting it was wrong and moving on and making a mistaken claim and continuing to defend/deny/hide it. If there are issues with the church and it continues to defend/deny them then I think people should look elsewhere.

[old_gregg]

I left the church because of a pamphlet written by a prophet or apostle (cannot remember the dude's name) in which the gay person, each and every time, was referred to as "the pervert." My bishopric had just sent me to LDS therapy to help me become straight. I was having a brief love affair with a lesbian transsexual at the time, and she came a couple times to attend my young adults Sunday school class that I was teaching, in which she started to praise the glory of goddess worship and lesbian sex. My bishop called me into his office and asked me if I was sleeping with this woman, and I said, "Yes, but we're both gay so it's cool." Going through "therapy" convinced me to leave the church. I attended my excommunication court wearing very faggy clothes, lipstick and eyeliner. I sat there, with those three rows of white guys all frowning at me, and I just wanted to laugh. When I was asked, "Brother Pugmire, are you gay?" I replied "Yes!" in my finest Garbo impersonation.

Do I feel the church has progressed? Oh honey! I feel accepted as a member of the church by almost everyone in the wards I have attended (there are some whom my radar alerts me as being extremely uptight). But there are moments when I am reminded that I am the ever Outsider in the church. Once there was, in the foyer, along with the morning programs, a wee pamphlet about "Protecting traditional marriage." In one Priesthood class the Brother giving the lesson called gay adoption one of the greatest evils of all time; I didn't think it would do any good to describe to him the extremely happy and healthy gay families with whom I had been acquainted.

I was far away from the church when the ban on blacks holding priesthood was lifted, so I don't know if there were any tell-tale signs that such a radical change was forthcoming. I wonder how many members fell away from the church because that ban was lifted. I don't expect any such thing to happen regarding gay marriage during my lifetime.

Growing up as a Latter-day Saint teenager in the 1960's instilled within me a kind of shame at being LDS. I attended a high school with a largely black student body, and more than once I heard in classrooms black kids dis the church because it says that black folk are the children of Cane and thus cannot hold the priesthood. At the same time, I had this weird protective feeling toward the church, which has stayed with me and intensified as I've grown old. The crap I had to listen to when I returned to the church, the lies about my religion from people who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about.

I applaud any steps that the church takes in making its gay members feel at home in their religion. I love the church and cherish its gospel, and I won't allow anything or anyone to take that from me, even if I get exed again for my punk drag queen attire (which these days I only wear during my YouTube videos or when I go out to promote my books). I've had the experience of being away from the church for twenty-five years, for exploring so many other religions and lifestyles. Nothing in life makes me as happy as does being a Mormon. I got that LDS DNA up the arse, baby.

[OhioBlue]

That video sort of made me turn the corner a little in my thinking. I still think that the church is not capable of changing in a way that will be meaningful enough for it to be a healthy place for gays to be. With that said, the crisis of gay LDS kids and young adults killing themselves is real and if they don't find at least some support in their early twenties and in college, some of them aren't going to live long enough to make it to a stage of maturity where they can decide what direction their lives will take with respect to the church. So whether they can actually ever attain whatever their reformationist goals (I think they cannot) is less important to me than the fact that groups such as this provide a port in the storm. From that perspective, I think that them raising their profile is very important.

exactly.

[Jennerstein]

I'm grouping these two because they get at the heart of my frustration on this issue. I see a lot of really good people in the Church. These people put a lot of energy into trying to do the right thing. They listen to their leaders and try to follow them. On the other side of things, I see an organization that seems to always be behind. I do think the Church will be different in a generation or two. But what frustrates me to no end is that the cart seems to continually be leading the horse. These good people who listen to their leaders--they're the same who would embrace a message on tolerance that STILL is left unsaid while we focus on the number of earrings a girl should have.

I disagree with your statement that the cart is lead by the horse. I also disagree with others who feel that this event is insignificance. The student body and administration at BYU is the horse. Now, they may not be in a position to expound about church doctrine over the pulpit, but in time they will be.

Each and every large organization goes through change slowly, step by step. As I serve within the church, my experience has shown me that the church is no different in this regard. There is a lot of bureaucracy and group think, which is unavoidable in an organization of this size. At the same time, I have experienced and seen divine guidance and revelation. Most people are trying to do the best they know how with the light they have.

I feel the reason why the panel was such an important step was because the student body was able to publicly hear the thoughts of active, faith-bearing LDS who have SGA. This is what's needed for progress to be made. The conservative LDS church leadership and the GBLT gay movement are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This panel met somewhere in the middle and was held in the context of faith. That context of faith and belief is what's needed for progress to be made in a religious based institution.

[Blueintheface]

Good point. And he cried. What a pussy. I missed that initially too.

[Viking]

That video sort of made me turn the corner a little in my thinking. I still think that the church is not capable of changing in a way that will be meaningful enough for it to be a healthy place for gays to be. With that said, the crisis of gay LDS kids and young adults killing themselves is real and if they don't find at least some support in their early twenties and in college, some of them aren't going to live long enough to make it to a stage of maturity where they can decide what direction their lives will take with respect to the church. So whether they can actually ever attain whatever their reformationist goals (I think they cannot) is less important to me than the fact that groups such as this provide a port in the storm. From that perspective, I think that them raising their profile is very important.

That was a great video. If only Stuart Matis could have seen it.

[Goatnapper'96]

I left the church because of a pamphlet written by a prophet or apostle (cannot remember the dude's name) in which the gay person, each and every time, was referred to as "the pervert." My bishopric had just sent me to LDS therapy to help me become straight. I was having a brief love affair with a lesbian transsexual at the time, and she came a couple times to attend my young adults Sunday school class that I was teaching, in which she started to praise the glory of goddess worship and lesbian sex. My bishop called me into his office and asked me if I was sleeping with this woman, and I said, "Yes, but we're both gay so it's cool." Going through "therapy" convinced me to leave the church. I attended my excommunication court wearing very faggy clothes, lipstick and eyeliner. I sat there, with those three rows of white guys all frowning at me, and I just wanted to laugh. When I was asked, "Brother Pugmire, are you gay?" I replied "Yes!" in my finest Garbo impersonation.

Do I feel the church has progressed? Oh honey! I feel accepted as a member of the church by almost everyone in the wards I have attended (there are some whom my radar alerts me as being extremely uptight). But there are moments when I am reminded that I am the ever Outsider in the church. Once there was, in the foyer, along with the morning programs, a wee pamphlet about "Protecting traditional marriage." In one Priesthood class the Brother giving the lesson called gay adoption one of the greatest evils of all time; I didn't think it would do any good to describe to him the extremely happy and healthy gay families with whom I had been acquainted.

I was far away from the church when the ban on blacks holding priesthood was lifted, so I don't know if there were any tell-tale signs that such a radical change was forthcoming. I wonder how many members fell away from the church because that ban was lifted. I don't expect any such thing to happen regarding gay marriage during my lifetime.

Growing up as a Latter-day Saint teenager in the 1960's instilled within me a kind of shame at being LDS. I attended a high school with a largely black student body, and more than once I heard in classrooms black kids dis the church because it says that black folk are the children of Cane and thus cannot hold the priesthood. At the same time, I had this weird protective feeling toward the church, which has stayed with me and intensified as I've grown old. The crap I had to listen to when I returned to the church, the lies about my religion from people who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about.

I applaud any steps that the church takes in making its gay members feel at home in their religion. I love the church and cherish its gospel, and I won't allow anything or anyone to take that from me, even if I get exed again for my punk drag queen attire (which these days I only wear during my YouTube videos or when I go out to promote my books). I've had the experience of being away from the church for twenty-five years, for exploring so many other religions and lifestyles. Nothing in life makes me as happy as does being a Mormon. I got that LDS DNA up the arse, baby.

Did you guys (gender neutral, I think) make videos or something? What??WHAT?!

[Goatnapper'96]

Man, my feelings have been back and forth on this. Like most people, I felt a lot of hope reading the live blog of the event. I initially felt that this was going to be huge, that significant change was possible and just on the horizon. Then the next day understanding that my hopeful feelings were mainly for the students, and realizing that BYU was still controlling the narrative of this event (mainly by the fact that the students were not allowed to discuss doctrinal issues). Then swinging back a bit after group pile on of Solon's remarks, kind of feeling that we're all in the same boat (more or less), acknowledging that the event was huge for the students, not so much for the institution.

I think Jay and others have stated perfectly why I have ambiguious feelings. This forum is led by a bunch of people in the cart want to lead the horse. The institution has a long history of changing only when forced to. I think most of us believe that change is inevitable (and very much needed). Therefore, people who want change now become very frustrated when the institution refuses to address these concerns in a meaningful way. We know (or at least hope) that the church and BYU will change its stance on a number of issues in the future. Our history has clearly shown that we are constantly migrating toward the societal norm. Why can't it speed up???

I have learned that a good definition of conservative is the opposite of liberal. A good definition of liberal is more disposed to fundamentally questioning societal norms and values. People attracted to religion tend to be conservative. This is why change is so slow in a religion. I, of myself, tend to be conservative but I know I change.

God's purposes for the Church is to promulgate the gospel and encourage God's children to participate in ordinances. But for a variety of reasons the Church has evolved to fulfill many other purposes. However, change or the pathway to exaltation is very much an individual journey. In essence while it matters what "the Church" does, I don't think it matters as much as what the individual members do. Perhaps the Church will one day become all what you want it to be, perhaps it won't but I am not convinced either direction or endstate of the Church, as an institutional governing body, has as much bearing or influence on you or I as it is sometimes given credit. The older I get the more irrelevent I think it is in that role. My guess is you would find the individual members more closely aligned with your vision of utopia than you will find the governing body.

[UtahDan]

That was a great video. If only Stuart Matis could have seen it.

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/7940

[Northwestcoug]

I have learned that a good definition of conservative is the opposite of liberal. A good definition of liberal is more disposed to fundamentally questioning societal norms and values. People attracted to religion tend to be conservative. This is why change is so slow in a religion. I, of myself, tend to be conservative but I know I change.

God's purposes for the Church is to promulgate the gospel and encourage God's children to participate in ordinances. But for a variety of reasons the Church has evolved to fulfill many other purposes. However, change or the pathway to exaltation is very much an individual journey. In essence while it matters what "the Church" does, I don't think it matters as much as what the individual members do. Perhaps the Church will one day become all what you want it to be, perhaps it won't but I am not convinced either direction or endstate of the Church, as an institutional governing body, has as much bearing or influence on you or I as it is sometimes given credit. The older I get the more irrelevent I think it is in that role. My guess is you would find the individual members more closely aligned with your vision of utopia than you will find the governing body.

To be sure, if the 'one true church' teaching is the reality, then all my whining is pointless. But as I'm getting older (and agreeing with your sentiment of the importance of the individual's journey), the more I want to see change in the organization that still preaches the need to control so much of our lives. I don't like being the person who sees the need to temper a lot of church teaching with my own perspective, when my children ask questions. They go to church and young women's, and have been taught that homosexuality is a serious sin. They are not getting the sentiment shared here from an official capacity. So when I tell them my feelings about gay people, there is a disconnect. Do they trust their church leaders, or do they trust their father? This is my main concern about a church that seems to have a growing generation that is at odds with the leadership.

[Portland Ute]

I got that LDS DNA up the arse, baby.