Tithing

[Pheidippides]

How do you determine what living expenses are? Are they basically rent, food, clothing, books?

It's a good time to start using Mint so I can get a breakdown.

Pretty much as far as I'm concerned. I'm also adding in debt service for my student loans and utilities (electric/water/gas).

[pellegrino]

How do you determine what living expenses are? Are they basically rent, food, clothing, books?

It's a good time to start using Mint so I can get a breakdown.

It's simple, you determine what you spend to live. Just like income they'll vary from individual to individual. God never intended to tell you what you need to live, just that you need to pay tithing on that which you don't need to live.

[Green Monstah]

A counselor in my bishopric was instructing the youth on tithing and he said they had to pay 1/10 of their gross income to be considered full tithe payers. He probably should go back and read the handbook.

Is he a lawyer? If so, I bet I know him.

[wuapinmon]

I <3 pellegrino.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's simple, you determine what you spend to live. Just like income they'll vary from individual to individual. God never intended to tell you what you need to live, just that you need to pay tithing on that which you don't need to live.

Interesting.

I need to get the wife to buy into this. And the more lavishly I live, the less tithing I pay. Win-win.

[Omaha 680]

Interesting.

I need to get the wife to buy into this. And the more lavishly I live, the less tithing I pay. Win-win.

I now that last part is a joke, but it is precisely the reason I would be personally uncomfortable with the approach. Not all living expenses are created equal.

[Pheidippides]

I now that last part is a joke, but it is precisely the reason I would be personally uncomfortable with the approach. Not all living expenses are created equal.

The early saints were comfortable enough with it that most of them paid nothing.

[Omaha 680]

The early saints were comfortable enough with it that most of them paid nothing.

I'm not judging them or you. I'm just stating my personal feelings.

[Pheidippides]

I'm not judging them or you. I'm just stating my personal feelings.

I know. I'm just reflecting on the early saints and know exactly what you and JL are talking about.

I am going to buy a bigger house and nicer car though.

[Mormon Red Death]

I know. My approach is simply the cash in the door, which isn't technically net since my 401k, share purchase program, etc. never comes in the door....at least not until I take it out when I retire. Basing tithing off cash in the door is by far the simplest and most rational way of paying if you want to pay on 10% of your income.

Also, I never pay tithing on gifts. A gift isn't income. I cringe when MJ makes persuades the kids to pay tithing on their birthday money. I'd also never pay tithing on an inheritance nor on an increase in sold property value unless it truly was income (which it was for me in 2006 so I paid tithing on it).

Thinking about the word "income" and I came to a realization. Income is never seen @ the top of a financial statement. Its always @ the bottom. Income is closer to margin and profit (net income and gross income) than it is revenues. Is this in your experience as well? Since I only deal with health care industry maybe its different in other areas. I seem to remember you are an accountant of some sort.

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[Portland Ute]

It's simple, you determine what you spend to live. Just like income they'll vary from individual to individual. God never intended to tell you what you need to live, just that you need to pay tithing on that which you don't need to live.

I can be persuaded that this approach, such as niku stated, is correct.

For instance, back in frontier/pioneer days, how did you obtain a shelter over your head? You went out and cut down trees and made logs. I seriously doubt, without any research, that frontier Mormons/pioneers were cutting making 100 logs for their home and were tithing 10 of them to the Church. Now, perhaps, if they made 100 logs and there were 10 left over, they might sell them or trade them for a "profit". In which case, I can see giving 1/10th of those logs or the things they purchased to the Church.

Why and how is a mortgage any different?

What did these frontiersman do with food they raised? They ate it and sold the surplus. The surplus was what, I believe, was tithed. They didn't pay a tithe on their crops that they ate. How many modern Mormons raise their own food? Do they pay a "tithe" on this food if they consume it themselves? Uh...no.

Why should grocery expenses be any different?

Interesting.

I need to get the wife to buy into this. And the more lavishly I live, the less tithing I pay. Win-win.

I now that last part is a joke, but it is precisely the reason I would be personally uncomfortable with the approach. Not all living expenses are created equal.

I know. I'm just reflecting on the early saints and know exactly what you and JL are talking about.

I am going to buy a bigger house and nicer car though.

This is the crux of the problem. Where do you draw the line?

It's precisely this "problem" that has made me decide, should I ever go this route, that it would be best to determine the "cost of doing business" on the median cost of a home in the area, etc. I don't know how you figure in clothing and cars. I suppose there are similar data sets available out there.

I could make an argument that if you aren't living in a custom home with a pool and hot tub, with satellite TV, with tickets to my alma mater's football games, driving a Porsche Panamera Turbo and eating out every meal, you are NOT living.

It'd be very easy to justify every "discretionary" purchase or "want" as a "need." If you spend your money completely on "needs" then there is no surplus.

One step further, if you have paid for your families "needs" and there is a surplus, where does the money go? Into a savings/rainy day/ retirement account? Isn't saving money a "need?" We are commanded to do it....

So what's left? Entertainment dollars? If you go on a trip to Disneyland and it costs $2000 do you pay $200 in tithing?

[Bo Diddley]

Do what you feel to be right. This is what it comes down to. As long as you have a clear conscience, and the Spirit confirms that you're doing right, two thumbs up!

[Pelado]

That's happened in the past to my kids by more than one former Bishop. I just mentioned to them that paying on gross is fine while they are kids. They don't pay taxes and most of their needs are met by parents. But when they are adults, finances get more complex since they will be paying taxes, saving for retirement, and providing for their own families, etc. And that as an adult, they will then determine for themselves the intrest/income/increase on which to base their tithing should they choose to pay it.

Even as adults, there can be differences between spouses on what constitutes income and a tithing base. One of the sticking points between my spouse and I was the necessary child care expenses required for two working spouses with careers. My argument was that child care was a cost of both of us having careers and that it should be deducted prior to tithing. The church was still coming out ahead because our tithing base was increased with both of us working. Her point was where to dry the line, two spouses working means also having two cars, two professional wardrobes, etc. It was no small matter then because childcare was our greatest montly expense, more than our mortgage. She changed her viewpoint when a fellow LDS began to provide childcare for us since the childcare provider should be paying tithing on that money rather than both of us. But that childcare provider didn't work out so the compromise was that we let the IRS taxcode decide on how much childcare we would deduct prior to paying tithing so it was treated kind of like a tax.

I had a hell of a time explaining to my wife, who sells doTerra oils, that her commissions received (before expenses for cost of goods sold, samples, supplies, marketing, etc.) was not an appropriate tithing base. She probably still feels like she's underpaying.

Thinking about the word "income" and I came to a realization. Income is never seen @ the top of a financial statement. Its always @ the bottom. Income is closer to margin and profit (net income and gross income) than it is revenues. Is this in your experience as well? Since I only deal with health care industry maybe its different in other areas. I seem to remember you are an accountant of some sort.

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The top line of an income statement (aka P&L) is typically "Revenues" or "Gross receipts". Subtract the costs of goods sold, and you get to "Gross margin" or "Gross profit". Then you deduct most other expenses to get to "Net income".

[Mormon Red Death]

I had a hell of a time explaining to my wife, who sells doTerra oils, that her commissions received (before expenses for cost of goods sold, samples, supplies, marketing, etc.) was not an appropriate tithing base. She probably still feels like she's underpaying.



The top line of an income statement (aka P&L) is typically "Revenues" or "Gross receipts". Subtract the costs of goods sold, and you get to "Gross margin" or "Gross profit". Then you deduct most other expenses to get to "Net income".

Exactly what I think. When you pay on your "income" you are paying after expense and taxes. The brethren say to pay on income so you would pay on surplus.

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[Surfah]

Yeah, I still stand my first comment.