Tithing

[Mormon Red Death]

Seems I had the same question last year. so this is what its like to grow old.

[Indy Coug]

I really don't give a shit where my tithes go. If it's God's church, He can rectify whatever improprieties are going on, strike people dead, curse multiple generations of their offspring, etc. I refuse to believe that God is too damn impotent to straighten things out when they need to be straightened out.

I did what I agreed to do at my baptism (and consequently reaffirmed to do innumerable times). It's no longer my problem.

[pellegrino]

Tonight, as part of our larger yearly budget strategy, my wife and I are discussing tithing. We have done everything in the past from pay on gross to engaging in the sort of calculus Moliere and PU suggest to paying on whatever hit our bank account. All are equally ridiculous. So this year I'm going to suggest to my wife we do exactly what pellegrino suggests. Money in the door minus living expenses, then times ten percent. Yes, I can go into all sorts of funky calculations on what constitutes a living expense (do I use my house mortgage? median mortgage?) but I am not going to. I just don't care anymore and until there is a great shift in transparency I'm doing whatever is the bare minimum to say I pay a full tithe with a straight face. A reminder that I am a bastard of a lawyer who is a decent actor too.

Let me know what your wife thinks of this. It took some persuasion, but mrs. pellegrino saw the light rationale behind my interpretation.

EDIT: I do think that the First Presidency's interpretation of interest = income is technically ok, it's just misleading.

[pellegrino]

Seems I had the same question last year. so this is what its like to grow old.

I'll remember for you next year and bump a few threads in anticipation.

[Pheidippides]

Let me know what your wife thinks of this. It took some persuasion, but mrs. pellegrino saw the light rationale behind my interpretation.

EDIT: I do think that the First Presidency's interpretation of interest = income is technically ok, it's just misleading.

We've already discussed it before - she's on board with the concept but wants to delve into the math a bit more (median house price vs our house price). I want it just to be super simple.

[pellegrino]

We've already discussed it before - she's on board with the concept but wants to delve into the math a bit more (median house price vs our house price). I want it just to be super simple.

just decide what your "cost of doing business" is and then tithe what is left over. I wouldn't worry about anything else.

[DrumNFeather]

We've already discussed it before - she's on board with the concept but wants to delve into the math a bit more (median house price vs our house price). I want it just to be super simple.

That doesn't sound very simple.

[Pheidippides]

That doesn't sound very simple.

I'm with you. Doesn't sound simple. I want to just use the plus, minus and multiply keys and be done. No outside research.

[Paperback Writer]

A counselor in my bishopric was instructing the youth on tithing and he said they had to pay 1/10 of their gross income to be considered full tithe payers. He probably should go back and read the handbook.

That's happened in the past to my kids by more than one former Bishop. I just mentioned to them that paying on gross is fine while they are kids. They don't pay taxes and most of their needs are met by parents. But when they are adults, finances get more complex since they will be paying taxes, saving for retirement, and providing for their own families, etc. And that as an adult, they will then determine for themselves the intrest/income/increase on which to base their tithing should they choose to pay it.

Even as adults, there can be differences between spouses on what constitutes income and a tithing base. One of the sticking points between my spouse and I was the necessary child care expenses required for two working spouses with careers. My argument was that child care was a cost of both of us having careers and that it should be deducted prior to tithing. The church was still coming out ahead because our tithing base was increased with both of us working. Her point was where to dry the line, two spouses working means also having two cars, two professional wardrobes, etc. It was no small matter then because childcare was our greatest montly expense, more than our mortgage. She changed her viewpoint when a fellow LDS began to provide childcare for us since the childcare provider should be paying tithing on that money rather than both of us. But that childcare provider didn't work out so the compromise was that we let the IRS taxcode decide on how much childcare we would deduct prior to paying tithing so it was treated kind of like a tax.

[Moliere]

That doesn't sound very simple.

I know. My approach is simply the cash in the door, which isn't technically net since my 401k, share purchase program, etc. never comes in the door....at least not until I take it out when I retire. Basing tithing off cash in the door is by far the simplest and most rational way of paying if you want to pay on 10% of your income.

Also, I never pay tithing on gifts. A gift isn't income. I cringe when MJ makes persuades the kids to pay tithing on their birthday money. I'd also never pay tithing on an inheritance nor on an increase in sold property value unless it truly was income (which it was for me in 2006 so I paid tithing on it).

[Sullyute]

I really don't give a shit where my tithes go. If it's God's church, He can rectify whatever improprieties are going on, strike people dead, curse multiple generations of their offspring, etc. I refuse to believe that God is too damn impotent to straighten things out when they need to be straightened out.

I did what I agreed to do at my baptism (and consequently reaffirmed to do innumerable times). It's no longer my problem.

I really don't believe either bolded statement above. I hear those all the time (although generally with less swearing involved) but don't think that really is the case.

You do care, but you believe that they are going to the purpose that God intended, i.e. building the kingdom of God. If it was tauted at General Conference that the Elder Monson was burning wads of Franklins in his fireplace to stay warm, you would care. If the Church turned every ward house into a Danite training camp, you would care. If the Q12 were dropping $50m a piece to take annual rides with the cosmonauts to the space station, you would care.

As members of the church it is our "problem". We sustain the leaders and their practices multiple times a year. We are the ones that have to work with minimal budgets in our wards. It may not be our direct responsbility to make decisions on where the funds are spent, but we reap the effects of those decisions and thus it is our "problem".

[Moliere]

That's happened in the past to my kids by more than one former Bishop. I just mentioned to them that paying on gross is fine while they are kids. They don't pay taxes and most of their needs are met by parents. But when they are adults, finances get more complex since they will be paying taxes, saving for retirement, and providing for their own families, etc. And that as an adult, they will then determine for themselves the intrest/income/increase on which to base their tithing should they choose to pay it.

Even as adults, there can be differences between spouses on what constitutes income and a tithing base. One of the sticking points between my spouse and I was the necessary child care expenses required for two working spouses with careers. My argument was that child care was a cost of both of us having careers and that it should be deducted prior to tithing. The church was still coming out ahead because our tithing base was increased with both of us working. Her point was where to dry the line, two spouses working means also having two cars, two professional wardrobes, etc. It was no small matter then because childcare was our greatest montly expense, more than our mortgage. She changed her viewpoint when a fellow LDS began to provide childcare for us since the childcare provider should be paying tithing on that money rather than both of us. But that childcare provider didn't work out so the compromise was that we let the IRS taxcode decide on how much childcare we would deduct prior to paying tithing so it was treated kind of like a tax.

One of these days I'm going to create a 1040-T. Maybe the church will adopt it and require it to be filled out and given to the bishop at tithing settlement time. Then the stake auditors can have one more thing to do, which is audit your tithing return.

[Katy Lied]

How do you determine what living expenses are? Are they basically rent, food, clothing, books?

It's a good time to start using Mint so I can get a breakdown.

[Indy Coug]

I really don't believe either bolded statement above.

Regardless of your unbelief in me, that's how I feel.

[pellegrino]

That's happened in the past to my kids by more than one former Bishop. I just mentioned to them that paying on gross is fine while they are kids. They don't pay taxes and most of their needs are met by parents. But when they are adults, finances get more complex since they will be paying taxes, saving for retirement, and providing for their own families, etc. And that as an adult, they will then determine for themselves the intrest/income/increase on which to base their tithing should they choose to pay it.

Even as adults, there can be differences between spouses on what constitutes income and a tithing base. One of the sticking points between my spouse and I was the necessary child care expenses required for two working spouses with careers. My argument was that child care was a cost of both of us having careers and that it should be deducted prior to tithing. The church was still coming out ahead because our tithing base was increased with both of us working. Her point was where to dry the line, two spouses working means also having two cars, two professional wardrobes, etc. It was no small matter then because childcare was our greatest montly expense, more than our mortgage. She changed her viewpoint when a fellow LDS began to provide childcare for us since the childcare provider should be paying tithing on that money rather than both of us. But that childcare provider didn't work out so the compromise was that we let the IRS taxcode decide on how much childcare we would deduct prior to paying tithing so it was treated kind of like a tax.

and all of this because of the doublespeak of that 1970 "clarification". I think when you read section 119 it becomes very easy to determine what your annual interest is. I would hope that anyone considering this would not let the tax code determine what your living expenses are. They do that because there are legal ramifications if they don't. It really doesn't have to be that complicated for tithing.