Tithing

[Dwight Schr-ute]

I stopped paying tithing about 2 years before I left the church. Nothing bad happened, but it allowed my ex to quit her job to make up the difference in tithing. If you are uncomfortable not paying tithing, maybe you could instead pay your tithing to a charity of your choice. That way you can choose what gets your money and you can feel as though you have fulfilled the tithing obligation with your god.

I was having a similar conversation with a friend of mine who was recently excommunicated and therefore unable to pay tithing. She wondered if she should be putting aside the 10% and then pay it all back once her membership was reinstated. I encouraged her to either pick a charity of her choice or just pick one of the other church contributions (fast offerings, perpetual education fund...) if she was worried about the extra 10%.

[Moliere]

Neither of this takes into account inflation, which could be considerable over 20 or 30 years. I wonder if it would just be easier to put the savings away before I pay tithing and then pay tithing on my retirement/college funds when I take money out of the fund down the road.

This is what I do (as do others in my ward including my bishop). I don't count my 401k contributions as an increase because they are not accessible to me in the same way other cash is accessible. I figure I'll just pay 10% on the full amount I withdraw when I withdraw it.

As for SS taxes I also don't count those as an increase and will just pay 10% on all SS payments I get in 2043 when I retire (at which point I'll be lucky to get 70% of currently projected payments). I mean, really, why should I be paying tithing on money that is not being paid to me and is instead going to my father and his baby booming friends to pay for their retirement?

If you don't do these then you are stuck trying to bifurcate your contributions from your employers contributions and also the interest ro accretion of the investment, which is just too much for me to worry or care about.

[Mormon Red Death]

Neither of this takes into account inflation, which could be considerable over 20 or 30 years. I wonder if it would just be easier to put the savings away before I pay tithing and then pay tithing on my retirement/college funds when I take money out of the fund down the road.

Yes it does. Lets do some simple math. Lets say the Fourth Nephite (TFN) make 1,000 per month gross. After Taxes and everything else besides a 401k he brings home $800 in Net. Lets also assume He puts $100 in a Roth IRA. Under this scenario TFN would pay $80 in Tithing a month. lets assume TFN gets 3% raise every year and still brings home 80% of Gross and he never changes his $100 a month Roth IRA contribution which gets on average 8%. Lets also say he retires in 30 years.

This would mean that after 30 years TFN would have contributed $36,000 to his Roth IRA and his Roth IRA would have been worth $149,036. Thus, if TFN took out all his disbursement in one year his tithing would be (149,036 - 36,000)*10% = $11,303. If TFN decided to take a disbursement in yearly chunks for 30 years and lets say his Roth IRA got 0% interest in Retirement TFN would then pay $376.78 a year for tithing.

Now lets say TFN makes the same amounts except its in a pretax account instead of after tax. TFN would make $1000,$100 for retirement and 20% for taxes health insurance etc.. to make his net $700 and his tithe $70. In 30 years his Retirement account would still be $149,036 and the tithe would be $149,036 less taxes (remember he pays on net) *10%

[Green Monstah]

I went to Church three times last year, and I paid a full tithe (on net income, of course). Sometimes I just don't understand myself.

The fact that you only attended three times means fire insurance is all the more important (I'm kidding, of course).

[Green Monstah]

Tithing Slips

An interesting issue has arisen with my employer, my charitable donations, and the new tithing slips.

My employer will match up to $15k/year in donations to NPOs, except for churches. However, if I can demonstrate a secular purpose for the donation (humanitarian aid, building a school, etc.), then the donation qualifies for offerings. With the new disclaimer on the bottom of the tithing slip, is it ethical for me to advocate qualifying a donation for gift-matching if I'm not sure that the funds will be used for the stated purpose?

I fully realize that I can submit the check and the Church will get paid, but I actually have to certify that the donation is to an NPO and will be used in accordance with company policies.

[byu71]

I went to Church three times last year, and I paid a full tithe (on net income, of course). Sometimes I just don't understand myself.

Good, I mean good if you feel good about it. Did you read The Richest Man in Babylon? That could explain your giving.

[Bo Diddley]

This is what I do (as do others in my ward including my bishop). I don't count my 401k contributions as an increase because they are not accessible to me in the same way other cash is accessible. I figure I'll just pay 10% on the full amount I withdraw when I withdraw it.

As for SS taxes I also don't count those as an increase and will just pay 10% on all SS payments I get in 2043 when I retire (at which point I'll be lucky to get 70% of currently projected payments). I mean, really, why should I be paying tithing on money that is not being paid to me and is instead going to my father and his baby booming friends to pay for their retirement?

If you don't do these then you are stuck trying to bifurcate your contributions from your employers contributions and also the interest ro accretion of the investment, which is just too much for me to worry or care about.

Same here. It's very clean and logical.

[LeedsCougar]

I went to Church three times last year, and I paid a full tithe (on net income, of course). Sometimes I just don't understand myself.

I've been lurking here for years; you're an odd one, but god love you!

[pellegrino]

Speaking of tithing, I have a tithing question I don't know the answer to.

I get paid and I pay my tithing. Then with money that has already been tithed (ie, the 90% left over), I put money away towards retirement and my kids future college expenses.

In the future, when I take that money out to use it (either for retirement or college), how do I calculate tithing on the increase? Or should I not worry because I already paid tithing? Or should I pay on the increase when taking inflation into account?

follow the scriptures, pay on your surplus or your annual interest (profit). Just like businesses have costs of doing business, you have living expenses, you should tithe after your needs are met and then pay on your surplus. That way you don't have to worry about whether or not you have been properly tithed during retirement. You always pay on your surplus, regardless of how it came to you.

[Mormon Red Death]

follow the scriptures, pay on your surplus or your annual interest (profit). Just like businesses have costs of doing business, you have living expenses, you should tithe after your needs are met and then pay on your surplus. That way you don't have to worry about whether or not you have been properly tithed during retirement. You always pay on your surplus, regardless of how it came to you.

When did "increase" become "income" instead of profit? In church materials you always hear about paying tithing first from the all safely gathered manual

Tithing

If our tithing is the first obligation met, our commitment to this important gospel principle will be strengthened and the likelihood of financial mismanagement will be reduced.

Anyone have anything on the change?

Seems pretty clear though that you are supposed to pay on surplus.

D&C 119
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

[Paperback Writer]

When did "increase" become "income" instead of profit? In church materials you always hear about paying tithing first from the all safely gathered manual



Anyone have anything on the change?

Seems pretty clear though that you are supposed to pay on surplus.

Quinn (and others) have written about how LDS tithing definition has changed through the years. BTW, I think progress has been made.

At one time, LDS were asked to pay 1/10 of their net worth upon arriving in Utah territory and 1/10 of their increase after that. No exceptions were made for converts who also paid 1/10 of their net worth upon baptism before immigration to Utah. Many early saints did not obey the law of tithing simply because they could not afford to pay 1/10 of their net worth. There was even a jubilee year where early saints were told that their tithing debt would be reduced by half. Further, Q12 and FP voted to exempt themselves from paying tithing which must have caused problems among the rank-and-file saints.

It wasn't until after the turn of the century that the 1/10 of one's net worth upon conversion or entering Zion was done away with. After, that more LDS began paying tithing.

So I think great progress has been made in the church when it comes to tithing. It should remain as something between the individual and the Lord. More progress would be made by doing away with tithing settlement altogether. Just let the ward financial clerk distribute end-of-year statements for tax purposes. Handle the tithing question in youth Bishop interviews and TR interviews.

[Sullyute]

When did "increase" become "income" instead of profit? In church materials you always hear about paying tithing first from the all safely gathered manual



Anyone have anything on the change?

Seems pretty clear though that you are supposed to pay on surplus.

I beleive that it comes from this statement by the First Presidency in 1970:

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

[Jeff Lebowski]

Quinn (and others) have written about how LDS tithing definition has changed through the years. BTW, I think progress has been made.

At one time, LDS were asked to pay 1/10 of their net worth upon arriving in Utah territory and 1/10 of their increase after that. No exceptions were made for converts who also paid 1/10 of their net worth upon baptism before immigration to Utah. Many early saints did not obey the law of tithing simply because they could not afford to pay 1/10 of their net worth. There was even a jubilee year where early saints were told that their tithing debt would be reduced by half. Further, Q12 and FP voted to exempt themselves from paying tithing which must have caused problems among the rank-and-file saints.

It wasn't until after the turn of the century that the 1/10 of one's net worth upon conversion or entering Zion was done away with. After, that more LDS began paying tithing.

So I think great progress has been made in the church when it comes to tithing. It should remain as something between the individual and the Lord. More progress would be made by doing away with tithing settlement altogether. Just let the ward financial clerk distribute end-of-year statements for tax purposes. Handle the tithing question in youth Bishop interviews and TR interviews.

Interesting. Is Quinn your source on this? Origins of Power?

[Mormon Red Death]

I beleive that it comes from this statement by the First Presidency in 1970:

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

anyone know where the bolded came from? I can think of lots of things before income that interest would mean.

[Moliere]

I beleive that it comes from this statement by the First Presidency in 1970:

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

A counselor in my bishopric was instructing the youth on tithing and he said they had to pay 1/10 of their gross income to be considered full tithe payers. He probably should go back and read the handbook.