Tithing

[Northwestcoug]

Perhaps it was not useful for me to attempt to contrast Utah territory to modern times since so much has changed as you point out. I was just pointing out that at one point Mormons considered supporting missionaries as part of tithing. They first sent funds to the husband serving in the mission field and paid tithing on their increase after that.

Although the LDS church did much to support members in Utah territory, poverty was a real problem. And lets not forget that back then SP collected a salary (Uncle Ted beat me in making this point) and the Q12 and FP voted to exempt themselves from tithing and did so for a time. I think a lot of progress has been made in the area of defining tithing and allowing members to keep it between them and the Lord.

In my lifetime, my family moved 800+ miles in the midwest. In the area my family was moving from, SLC finally approved the building of a chapel and my father donated generously to the building fund, far above his allocated amount, to lesson the burden on other familes. After we moved, our new stake had just purchaed a vast stake farm and we were assessed a sizeable contribution. It created a hardship on my family for several years because of moving expenses and contributing to a new chapel, a stake farm, a significant ward budget...all in addition to tithing. To my Dad's credit, I never remember him complaining. I like the current system much better.

A few years ago, I learned that this vast stake farm had become valuable property as urban crawl came to its doorstep. The church sold it at considerable profit. I doubt any of that increase went to stake members who put up much of the funds to buy it in the first place. At least the area got a temple, so there's that.

I'm saying this with as little snark as I can. But when the church does this, I think you are completely justified deducting fast offerings, missionary funds, or any other money donated to local church needs from tithing.

[Katy Lied]

That Florida cow-calf operation has been called the most valuable undeveloped property in the US. Someday the church will sell it and make tons. Or develop it themselves so critics can piss themselves and call it City Creek II.

[Indy Coug]

That Florida cow-calf operation has been called the most valuable undeveloped property in the US. Someday the church will sell it and make tons. Or develop it themselves so critics can piss themselves and call it City Creek II.

They will sit on it for 200 more years and sell it when it becomes beachfront property.

[Moliere]

I'll admit to going down this rabbit hole when serving in Scouts/YM and dealing with a measly budget and having disagreements about what should be reimbursed. I got tired of debating it and just subtracted needed expenses from tithing since the stake was determined not to increase Scouts/YM budgets.

I did this as well. I got lots of pressure from the stake to decrease the cost of high adventure all while having a 1C that wanted to do the most extravagant campouts (SCUBA, Northern Tier, etc.). I compromised by allowing a big HA one year and then a cheaper one the next and trying to rotate like that. The expensive campouts were tough because they would cost up to $800 per boy and some families couldn't even pay 1/4 of that, but the bishop wanted to make sure certain kids (like single parent households) went on the campout regardless of their ability to pay. These kids were supposed to earn the money through the fundraiser, but for whatever reason they never did and would only earn $50 to $100, which means they tried but honestly making $800 and spending that on a campout for these families would be incredibly difficult and somewhat stupid. Our budget could never make up the difference so I'd just let them go and not turn in certain receipts. I think my worst year I paid $2,500 out of pocket for scouts/YM stuff. I just deducted it from tithing.

I don't think I'd deduct my son's mission payments from tithing, but if I'm asked to support someone else I'd likely do it. I probably wouldn't deduct FO as well unless I'm asked to pay above the cost of 2 meals, at which point I'd either not pay it or I'd deduct the amount above what I already pay. I actually prefer to pay my excess FOs to the local food bank. I don't think I've ever contributed to the BoM, humanitarian aid, or general missionary fund

[Pelado]

I did this as well. I got lots of pressure from the stake to decrease the cost of high adventure all while having a 1C that wanted to do the most extravagant campouts (SCUBA, Northern Tier, etc.). I compromised by allowing a big HA one year and then a cheaper one the next and trying to rotate like that. The expensive campouts were tough because they would cost up to $800 per boy and some families couldn't even pay 1/4 of that, but the bishop wanted to make sure certain kids (like single parent households) went on the campout regardless of their ability to pay. These kids were supposed to earn the money through the fundraiser, but for whatever reason they never did and would only earn $50 to $100, which means they tried but honestly making $800 and spending that on a campout for these families would be incredibly difficult and somewhat stupid. Our budget could never make up the difference so I'd just let them go and not turn in certain receipts. I think my worst year I paid $2,500 out of pocket for scouts/YM stuff. I just deducted it from tithing.

I don't think I'd deduct my son's mission payments from tithing, but if I'm asked to support someone else I'd likely do it. I probably wouldn't deduct FO as well unless I'm asked to pay above the cost of 2 meals, at which point I'd either not pay it or I'd deduct the amount above what I already pay. I actually prefer to pay my excess FOs to the local food bank. I don't think I've ever contributed to the BoM, humanitarian aid, or general missionary fund

Perpetual education fund?

[Moliere]

Perpetual education fund?

Don't think so, at least not anything substantial. I guess the PEF funds can also now be used to pay for whatever the church wants. Kind of an odd thing to think about it that way.

[Solon]

Don't think so, at least not anything substantial. I guess the PEF funds can also now be used to pay for whatever the church wants. Kind of an odd thing to think about it that way.

The essence of this discussion is how to apply a concept intended for a pre-industrial agrarian economy to an industrialized wage-labor society.
Generally, we no longer count our increase in livestock or bushels or captured shields. We earn by by selling our labor, not our produce.

[Uncle Ted]

The essence of this discussion is how to apply a concept intended for a pre-industrial agrarian economy to an industrialized wage-labor society.

Generally, we no longer count our increase in livestock or bushels or captured shields. We earn by by selling our labor, not our produce.

The church still takes "Gifts in Kind" for tithing. In fact, that is how I like to do donations. Although I don't pay with slaves or other forms of human trafficking as has been done in the history of the church in Utah...

Sep 7,1859 - Salt Lake City clerk records sale of twenty six year old "negro boy" for $800 to William H. Hooper. Until federal law ends slavery in U.S. Territories in 1862, some African-American slaves are paid as tithing, bought, sold and otherwise treated as chattel in Utah.

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_history.htm

It is interesting to think about increase however. For example, I own my own company. It does OK but I keep as much as I can in the company and take out only what I need or have to for tax reasons. I often mix business trips with vacation when possible. Write off parts of my home, car, etc. These are costs associated with the increase of the value of my company. Of course, the question is should the company be paying tithing on its increase as well. Maybe, I should be because the company is 100% mine and it's increasing in value. Of course, it is a private company and I have no idea what that value is. Valuations of most private companies are not trivial. Maybe I should give the church a minority position in my company as a Gift in Kind. Of course, minority stock owners in private companies usually always get screwed over.

[Katy Lied]

Although I don't pay with slaves or other forms of human trafficking as has been done in the history of the church in Utah...

You can thank Stephen Douglas for that. He and his "popular sovereignty" doctrine, a major bone of contention in the 1858 Lincoln-Douglas debates. Every time Douglas brought up the concept, Lincoln would bring up Utah polygamy as a horrifying consequence of popular sovereignty and the audience would recoil. We'll never know what Lincoln would have done about polygamy had he not been shot, but until the day he died he treated Utah with kid gloves and benign neglect. I believe he used the term "plow around." Probably had many more important things to worry about.

[pellegrino]

The essence of this discussion is how to apply a concept intended for a pre-industrial agrarian economy to an industrialized wage-labor society.
Generally, we no longer count our increase in livestock or bushels or captured shields. We earn by by selling our labor, not our produce.

haven't we already answered that?

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?53884-Tithing&p=937250&viewfull=1#post937250

[byu71]

Comments in another thread brought a question to mind that makes me wonder how others feel.

Let's say at Christmas you give each of your kids $10,000 (I use that figure because $100 is like a normal present). Although done at Christmas it isn't like it is done every Christmas.

Should the kids pay tithing on it? If my kids asked, I would say no, I already paid on it. It is after tithing funds.

I realize in the strictest terms it is an "increase" to them, but if that is the case should I deduct it from my years increase?

[All-American]

Comments in another thread brought a question to mind that makes me wonder how others feel.

Let's say at Christmas you give each of your kids $10,000 (I use that figure because $100 is like a normal present). Although done at Christmas it isn't like it is done every Christmas.

Should the kids pay tithing on it? If my kids asked, I would say no, I already paid on it. It is after tithing funds.

I realize in the strictest terms it is an "increase" to them, but if that is the case should I deduct it from my years increase?

My rule of thumb, with maybe a few case-by-case exceptions, is that if you don't have to pay taxes on it, you don't have to pay tithing on it. Thus, I would probably not pay tithing on gifts.

[Uncle Ted]

Comments in another thread brought a question to mind that makes me wonder how others feel.

Let's say at Christmas you give each of your kids $10,000 (I use that figure because $100 is like a normal present). Although done at Christmas it isn't like it is done every Christmas.

Should the kids pay tithing on it? If my kids asked, I would say no, I already paid on it. It is after tithing funds.

I realize in the strictest terms it is an "increase" to them, but if that is the case should I deduct it from my years increase?

I would say you give your kids pre-tithing dollars. In other words, reduce your increase. Then they can decide if they want to pay tithing or not.

It is kind of like what JS said about teaching them correct principles and letting them governing themselves.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Comments in another thread brought a question to mind that makes me wonder how others feel.

Let's say at Christmas you give each of your kids $10,000 (I use that figure because $100 is like a normal present). Although done at Christmas it isn't like it is done every Christmas.

Should the kids pay tithing on it? If my kids asked, I would say no, I already paid on it. It is after tithing funds.

I realize in the strictest terms it is an "increase" to them, but if that is the case should I deduct it from my years increase?

Tell your kids to not worry about the tithing, and then remind them that with that kind of cash they can buy their own damn football tickets.

[Uncle Ted]

My rule of thumb, with maybe a few case-by-case exceptions, is that if you don't have to pay taxes on it, you don't have to pay tithing on it. Thus, I would probably not pay tithing on gifts.

Hmm... so Rmoney didn't have to pay tithing in all those years he didn't pay taxes?