What do you suppose an Honor Code Office employee knocks down?

[Donuthole]

Are you sure. If I ask 50 kids on their honor to do their assignments and they agree and only 45 complete their assignment, then there is no honor for the 45? Is the only way the 45 can feel honor is if they see the 5 severly punished.

Is there no reward in just completing the assignment as asked and honored.

The punishment is there as an incentive to insure they keep their honor. If the reward is that I am not punished, I find that an empty reward. People will say, I had no honor unless threatened.

I maintain it isn't an honor code. It is a BYU code, standards code, rules contract, etc.

Reread my post.

[Uncle Ted]

I once sent about 50 or so students to the honor code office. I was working as a systems programmer at BYU at the time and noticed one day a student in the computer lab on a web site that had a lot of flesh colored pictures on his screen out of the corner of my eye. So I came up with a "hack" that would redirect someone going to a website like playboy.com to an internal website. Then on this web server I created a web page that looked like an official honor code office web page stating something like: "You have attempted to access a website that in accordance with the standards of this University and its honor code. You actions have been recorded and you are advised to make an appointment as soon as possible." and listed the phone number for the honor code office.

The honor code office called the college about a week or so later and was asking why all these students were coming into the honor code office to talk about looking at internet porn. The dean called me into his office and asked me what was going on. I told him what I had done and gave him a high level description how the porn redirector worked. This was fairly early in the days of the internet and porn filters and firewalls were not really not invented yet. He told about how the honor code office was being "flooded" with students that wanted to confess their honor code sins.

[Mormon Red Death]

you guys are killing me.

there is no way these stories are true.

[pellegrino]

there is a simple solution to this dilemma.

*Keep the HC, but give the power of discerning worthiness completely to the bishops.

*Instruct them to only report students who are unrepentant, unwilling to live the code, or those who show wanton disregard for it. Make sure that they know their job is to help the student repent and so long as the student is willing then they should help them do so.

*Make it so that when a bishop revokes the endorsement, the punishment (suspension/probation/dismissal) does not take place until the end of the semester. Immediate dismissal would only have to occur under grave circumstances (criminal charges).

*Do not issue press releases that acknowledge an HC violation has occurred. When Athletes are suspended, simply have the athletic office declare them academically ineligible or suspended for violating team rules and leave it at that.

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

IMO this combines the best of both. BYU can save face and project the image of a university with principles and students can live like normal LDS people without the fear of having their life ruined if they mess up. Athletes would also get a better deal out of it because unless their coaches feel like they have violated team rules, there is no mandatory suspension in the middle of the season. They'd have to really screw up to get kicked off the team.

[Mormon Red Death]

there is a simple solution to this dilemma.

*Keep the HC, but give the power of discerning worthiness completely to the bishops.

*Instruct them to only report students who are unrepentant, unwilling to live the code, or those who show wanton disregard for it. Make sure that they know their job is to help the student repent and so long as the student is willing then they should help them do so.

*Make it so that when a bishop revokes the endorsement, the punishment (suspension/probation/dismissal) does not take place until the end of the semester. Immediate dismissal would only have to occur under grave circumstances (criminal charges).

*Do not issue press releases that acknowledge an HC violation has occurred. When Athletes are suspended, simply have the athletic office declare them academically ineligible or suspended for violating team rules and leave it at that.

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

IMO this combines the best of both. BYU can save face and project the image of a university with principles and students can live like normal LDS people without the fear of having their life ruined if they mess up. Athletes would also get a better deal out of it because unless their coaches feel like they have violated team rules, there is no mandatory suspension in the middle of the season. They'd have to really screw up to get kicked off the team.

that is too sensible. They must have their pound of flesh

[DU Ute]

[Jeff Lebowski]

there is a simple solution to this dilemma.

*Keep the HC, but give the power of discerning worthiness completely to the bishops.

*Instruct them to only report students who are unrepentant, unwilling to live the code, or those who show wanton disregard for it. Make sure that they know their job is to help the student repent and so long as the student is willing then they should help them do so.

*Make it so that when a bishop revokes the endorsement, the punishment (suspension/probation/dismissal) does not take place until the end of the semester. Immediate dismissal would only have to occur under grave circumstances (criminal charges).

*Do not issue press releases that acknowledge an HC violation has occurred. When Athletes are suspended, simply have the athletic office declare them academically ineligible or suspended for violating team rules and leave it at that.

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

IMO this combines the best of both. BYU can save face and project the image of a university with principles and students can live like normal LDS people without the fear of having their life ruined if they mess up. Athletes would also get a better deal out of it because unless their coaches feel like they have violated team rules, there is no mandatory suspension in the middle of the season. They'd have to really screw up to get kicked off the team.

Not as big a change as I would prefer, but that is a very sensible approach.

[creekster]

there is a simple solution to this dilemma.

*Keep the HC, but give the power of discerning worthiness completely to the bishops.

*Instruct them to only report students who are unrepentant, unwilling to live the code, or those who show wanton disregard for it. Make sure that they know their job is to help the student repent and so long as the student is willing then they should help them do so.

*Make it so that when a bishop revokes the endorsement, the punishment (suspension/probation/dismissal) does not take place until the end of the semester. Immediate dismissal would only have to occur under grave circumstances (criminal charges).

*Do not issue press releases that acknowledge an HC violation has occurred. When Athletes are suspended, simply have the athletic office declare them academically ineligible or suspended for violating team rules and leave it at that.

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

IMO this combines the best of both. BYU can save face and project the image of a university with principles and students can live like normal LDS people without the fear of having their life ruined if they mess up. Athletes would also get a better deal out of it because unless their coaches feel like they have violated team rules, there is no mandatory suspension in the middle of the season. They'd have to really screw up to get kicked off the team.

I like this very much. Pellegrino for BYU president!

[Moliere]

there is a simple solution to this dilemma.

*Keep the HC, but give the power of discerning worthiness completely to the bishops.

*Instruct them to only report students who are unrepentant, unwilling to live the code, or those who show wanton disregard for it. Make sure that they know their job is to help the student repent and so long as the student is willing then they should help them do so.

*Make it so that when a bishop revokes the endorsement, the punishment (suspension/probation/dismissal) does not take place until the end of the semester. Immediate dismissal would only have to occur under grave circumstances (criminal charges).

*Do not issue press releases that acknowledge an HC violation has occurred. When Athletes are suspended, simply have the athletic office declare them academically ineligible or suspended for violating team rules and leave it at that.

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

IMO this combines the best of both. BYU can save face and project the image of a university with principles and students can live like normal LDS people without the fear of having their life ruined if they mess up. Athletes would also get a better deal out of it because unless their coaches feel like they have violated team rules, there is no mandatory suspension in the middle of the season. They'd have to really screw up to get kicked off the team.

I'm 95% behind this. If you also included that the dress and grooming standards should be removed then I would be 100% behind it.

[Uncle Ted]

there is a simple solution to this dilemma.

*Keep the HC, but give the power of discerning worthiness completely to the bishops.

*Instruct them to only report students who are unrepentant, unwilling to live the code, or those who show wanton disregard for it. Make sure that they know their job is to help the student repent and so long as the student is willing then they should help them do so.

*Make it so that when a bishop revokes the endorsement, the punishment (suspension/probation/dismissal) does not take place until the end of the semester. Immediate dismissal would only have to occur under grave circumstances (criminal charges).

*Do not issue press releases that acknowledge an HC violation has occurred. When Athletes are suspended, simply have the athletic office declare them academically ineligible or suspended for violating team rules and leave it at that.

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

IMO this combines the best of both. BYU can save face and project the image of a university with principles and students can live like normal LDS people without the fear of having their life ruined if they mess up. Athletes would also get a better deal out of it because unless their coaches feel like they have violated team rules, there is no mandatory suspension in the middle of the season. They'd have to really screw up to get kicked off the team.

So the bishop is the one man that decides the fate of the student? This sounds nice in theory. I had bishops that were very cool and actually seemed to have the power of discernment, but I have had others that were fairly racist, IMO, and had 99.9% shit for brains (of course, having an affair while being bishop may give that appearance). Just because a man is called bishop doesn't make him a great judge, IMHO. I have seen new bishops get flooded with confessions because members were afraid to confess their sins to the previous ones. I don't think every bishop is going to give every student the same benefit of the doubt as the next without any personal bias that they may have. IMO, it would be nice for the student to have a jury of his peers, due process, and be innocent until proven otherwise for life changing decisions like this.

[Shaka]

Giving the bishop sole power could lead to a lot of inconsistency and possibly make things worse. I can think of two BYU bishops who I wouldn't want anywhere near a repentent football player. Both were professors. On the other hand my other three BYU bishops would have been fantastic.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that the system needs a serious rethink. There needs to be more balance on how punishment is applied not only for athletes but for the general student population. I still think that unless the violation is criminal in nature the offender should be able to continue in school/play sports until at least the end of a given semester or possibly the end of their ecclesiastical endorsement period. At the end of the period the offender would be reevaluated on how they did in adjusting their behavior/attitude. If they made progress they are allowed to stay. If they didn't take things seriously then they get stiffer penalties or simply not be able to qualify for an endorsement. In other words the honor code policy resembles academic probation.

[Sleeping in EQ]

and the person confronting him acted honorably?????

My tongue is firmly planted in my cheek....

[Surfah]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that the system needs a serious rethink. There needs to be more balance on how punishment is applied not only for athletes but for the general student population. I still think that unless the violation is criminal in nature the offender should be able to continue in school/play sports until at least the end of a given semester or possibly the end of their ecclesiastical endorsement period. At the end of the period the offender would be reevaluated on how they did in adjusting their behavior/attitude. If they made progress they are allowed to stay. If they didn't take things seriously then they get stiffer penalties or simply not be able to qualify for an endorsement. In other words the honor code policy resembles academic probation.

That's something I could get behind. However, I am not sure the school would support it. At least the playing sports part. I think they'd insist that the player be suspended from the team as a representative of the University.

[jay santos]

I think the solution is simple.

1. The Honor Code Office is shut down completely.

2. Ecclesiastical endorsements continue to still be a requirement. Twice a year (or is it once?) every student is required to sit down with Ecclesiastical leader and review level of observance and commit to live it in the future.

3. No snitching. If you want to snitch on someone, do it the way everyone else in the church has to do it, tell their bishop.

4. Anything that comes to the attention of a high ranking BYU or LDS church official with a bug up their butt goes to the bishop, and the timing for review is the next Ecclesiastical endorsement.

5. A review board at the school can rule on whether or not to kick a student out for cases that involve serious criminal activity or academic related issues: fraud, cheating, etc.

This would still maintain the Honor Code as a serious part of BYU.

Opposition to this idea would say: what good is the Honor Code without any teeth, without any punishment? My answer: the Honor Code really has no teeth right now. Kids have sex and stay in school. Hundreds of them. The only ones that get kicked out are the ones that have the potential to embarrass the school publicly. That standard is so ridiculous, unfair, Pharasaical, inconsistent, UnChristlike, self righteous that no one can possibly defend it.

[SCcoug]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that the system needs a serious rethink. There needs to be more balance on how punishment is applied not only for athletes but for the general student population. I still think that unless the violation is criminal in nature the offender should be able to continue in school/play sports until at least the end of a given semester or possibly the end of their ecclesiastical endorsement period. At the end of the period the offender would be reevaluated on how they did in adjusting their behavior/attitude. If they made progress they are allowed to stay. If they didn't take things seriously then they get stiffer penalties or simply not be able to qualify for an endorsement. In other words the honor code policy resembles academic probation.

Great minds think alike Shaka. Seriously these are kids and in this day and age anything they do from a game winning play down to the smallest minutia is analyzed and archived for everyone to see. We debate whether or not BD needed to be removed from the team but I think we can all agree he doesn't need to go through the tabloid gauntlet and his most personal life exposed for all the nation's sports fans. For instance, imagine what his grandkids thirty years down the road will find when asked to write a report on someone and they choose grandpa. Or a future potential employer doing a basic search on BD. One search will bring all this back to the forefront. The internet won't forget. That is neither compassionate or remotely fair. BYU as an institution needs to protect these kids.