What do you suppose an Honor Code Office employee knocks down?

[TripletDaddy]

I don't understand this thread title. Just wanted to get that out there.

[thesaint258]

So the bishop is the one man that decides the fate of the student? This sounds nice in theory. I had bishops that were very cool and actually seemed to have the power of discernment, but I have had others that were fairly racist, IMO, and had 99.9% shit for brains (of course, having an affair while being bishop may give that appearance). Just because a man is called bishop doesn't make him a great judge, IMHO. I have seen new bishops get flooded with confessions because members were afraid to confess their sins to the previous ones. I don't think every bishop is going to give every student the same benefit of the doubt as the next without any personal bias that they may have. IMO, it would be nice for the student to have a jury of his peers, due process, and be innocent until proven otherwise for life changing decisions like this.

I agree with this, but at the same time, pellegrino's approach is far better than how the HCO operates now. And even if the bishop is a bad one, I'd still rather have an ecclesiastical leader involved in helping me and (possibly) determining my worthiness than some employee of the HCO.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I agree with this, but at the same time, pellegrino's approach is far better than how the HCO operates now. And even if the bishop is a bad one, I'd still rather have an ecclesiastical leader involved in helping me and (possibly) determining my worthiness than some employee of the HCO.

There's a deeper problem here. Our mouths proclaim that Bishops have discernment and that they are judges in Israel. Our behavior proclaims that we don't always trust them. It's like the time when my professor sent the wrong key to the testing center: I called him a bastard--and it was true--but it wasn't useful.

I can see someone not being keen on the appeals process in the Church Disciplinary system too.

The HCO was institutionalized in an era without media spectacles, social media, and public scrutiny as we know them today. Public Relations has become much more important to the Church and it has become increasingly difficult to treat things like HC violations in a Christian way. Apparently, proclaiming violators sins from the rooftops serves some PR goals, but it is at odds with other institutional goals--circumspection concerning "transgressions," walking side-by-side to strengthen one another, and so on.

[Eddie]

*Most importantly, students should encourage others to live the code, but when they see classmates breaking it they should be taught to respect the privacy of others by not gossiping. Bishops should never encourage students to act as informants. Students should be taught often to mind their own business and that confidentiality between them and the bishop is the key element of a sacred relationship.

I like your proposal. It seems very balanced and a good approach. The only thing I would add is that encouraging others to live the code and minding your own business take some balance that many students don't necessarily have.

For instance, I think it would be fine for a friend or roommate to encourage someone to go to the bishop. And for very serious issues, particularly those that may affect the roommate, I would even think it OK to mention them to the bishop yourself.

I don't think it is realistic to think every student would understand the nuance of how this works. So I do expect it would take some regular training of bishops to help them understand appropriate boundaries, along with how to appropriately handle the eclesiastical endorsement for students involved in the repentance process.

So the bishop is the one man that decides the fate of the student? This sounds nice in theory. I had bishops that were very cool and actually seemed to have the power of discernment, but I have had others that were fairly racist, IMO, and had 99.9% shit for brains (of course, having an affair while being bishop may give that appearance). Just because a man is called bishop doesn't make him a great judge, IMHO. I have seen new bishops get flooded with confessions because members were afraid to confess their sins to the previous ones. I don't think every bishop is going to give every student the same benefit of the doubt as the next without any personal bias that they may have. IMO, it would be nice for the student to have a jury of his peers, due process, and be innocent until proven otherwise for life changing decisions like this.

It seems like "innocent until proven guilty" gets thrown around a lot in speaking of the honor code office. And in light of experiences some here have shared of mistaken identity, etc., I understand that. But even in those cases - though there was implied threat, there was no punishment. Even in US criminal law where we are innocent until proven guilty - cops are notorius for interviewing a suspect as if they were guilty. I don't necessarily see this changing as far as the interview process. How often are students given consequences prior to the findings of the honor code office? I suspect when a player has been suspended it is because he has admited guilt to the coaches or the coaches have enough evidence to satisfy them. But I suspect the school waits to act until the process is finished.

My sense of this is that more often than not these kids are self-reporting. Or perhaps they are being reported and then admitting to what has happened. Or even, in cases of fornication, one party is self-reporting and the other party gets drawn in as part of that process.

I would be curious to know how often an accused student adamantly denies that anything happened and actually goes through any kind of hearing process complete with evidence, witnesses, etc.

My sense is that the issue is more one of determining what is a balanced justice/mercy consequence for the behavior rather than determining if it actually happened. And maybe for that some sort of peer council would be appropriate. But maybe that would lead to more issues than it would fix.

[Borderline Divine]

I don't understand this thread title. Just wanted to get that out there.

Well the thread has gone off in a much different and much more interesting direction, but my first thought was how much money is an Honor Code Office employee paid to do such a slimy job.

[Jacob]

Opposition to this idea would say: what good is the Honor Code without any teeth, without any punishment? My answer: the Honor Code really has no teeth right now. Kids have sex and stay in school. Hundreds of them. The only ones that get kicked out are the ones that have the potential to embarrass the school publicly. That standard is so ridiculous, unfair, Pharasaical, inconsistent, UnChristlike, self righteous that no one can possibly defend it.

I don't believe this to be the case. I have anecdotal evidence that contradicts your anecdotal evidence.

[jay santos]

I don't believe this to be the case. I have anecdotal evidence that contradicts your anecdotal evidence.

Please share.

[Jacob]

People seem to be assuming that the purpose of the honor code is to benefit the academic, spiritual, and social well-being of the rule-breaker. So we see arguments that bishops should be in charge of enforcement. But that is the purpose of the church, not the honor code. The honor code is intended to protect the institution and provide a better atmosphere for the students who chose to follow it. So, enforcement should serve those same ends. The person unable to keep the code should be expelled from the community so that the institution and the students can benefit from their chosen lifestyle without including the dishonorable.

This is why I've said that the real complaints are not about the enforcement, but the code itself. I'm all for changing the code to reflect a better standard that actually reflects a sense of honor that the students share. That is not currently the case. The students don't respect the HC. It has far too many ridiculous rules. Curfews. Grooming. These things make it worthy of scorn rather than respect.

But I can't see eliminating the big stuff. We Mormons think that chastity is extraordinarily important. It's not a step below cheating and lying. Any real challenge to the honor ought to focus on making it more respectable, but not eliminating it or its enforcement.

And I don't see the point of getting too worked up about it anyway. It is not going to change. Just look at the current line of succession:

Packer (next in line) - .00001% chance he favors eliminating the HC or its enforcement

Bednar (most likely to assume the Presidency in the next generation) -- there is 0% chance he would favor eliminating the HC or its enforcement. He is currently on a speaking tour touting his actions as president of Rick's, especially the fact that he had everybody make a show out of carrying their scriptures to Tuesday devotionals and the increased spirituality of those who wore white shirts and ties.

I lived through the honor code and it was never more than a minor annoyance. So I just can't see the point of kicking against the pricks on this one. The Board of Trustees will almost certainly eliminate sports before they eliminate the Honor Code. So it makes little sense to get in an uproar about the HC just because we are pissed that our basketball season will not end the way we hoped. And that it probably never will.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pissed about this whole thing.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Bednar (most likely to assume the Presidency in the next generation) -- there is 0% chance he would favor eliminating the HC or its enforcement. He is currently on a speaking tour touting his actions as president of Rick's, especially the fact that he had everybody make a show out of carrying their scriptures to Tuesday devotionals and the increased spirituality of those who wore white shirts and ties.

Not only that, but I read a Bednar quote recently where he told BYU-Idaho students that the Honor Code is a training program for making and maintaining temple covenants. Argh...

[old_gregg]

I don't believe this to be the case. I have anecdotal evidence that contradicts your anecdotal evidence.

one of the major components of church discipline is "protecting the image of the church."

[EuropeanFootballMale]

It is kind of funny to read this thread about how leaving everything in the hands of the bishops is the only way to go, and then go read some of the threads about bishops. I wish I knew the answer.

[wuapinmon]

one of the major components of church discipline is "protecting the image good name of the church."

That's how I always heard it put.

[old_gregg]

That's how I always heard it put.

that might be it. my experience had a lot more.... yelling about other things.

[jay santos]

People seem to be assuming that the purpose of the honor code is to benefit the academic, spiritual, and social well-being of the rule-breaker. So we see arguments that bishops should be in charge of enforcement. But that is the purpose of the church, not the honor code. The honor code is intended to protect the institution and provide a better atmosphere for the students who chose to follow it. So, enforcement should serve those same ends. The person unable to keep the code should be expelled from the community so that the institution and the students can benefit from their chosen lifestyle without including the dishonorable.

This is why I've said that the real complaints are not about the enforcement, but the code itself. I'm all for changing the code to reflect a better standard that actually reflects a sense of honor that the students share. That is not currently the case. The students don't respect the HC. It has far too many ridiculous rules. Curfews. Grooming. These things make it worthy of scorn rather than respect.

But I can't see eliminating the big stuff. We Mormons think that chastity is extraordinarily important. It's not a step below cheating and lying. Any real challenge to the honor ought to focus on making it more respectable, but not eliminating it or its enforcement.

And I don't see the point of getting too worked up about it anyway. It is not going to change. Just look at the current line of succession:

Packer (next in line) - .00001% chance he favors eliminating the HC or its enforcement

Bednar (most likely to assume the Presidency in the next generation) -- there is 0% chance he would favor eliminating the HC or its enforcement. He is currently on a speaking tour touting his actions as president of Rick's, especially the fact that he had everybody make a show out of carrying their scriptures to Tuesday devotionals and the increased spirituality of those who wore white shirts and ties.

I lived through the honor code and it was never more than a minor annoyance. So I just can't see the point of kicking against the pricks on this one. The Board of Trustees will almost certainly eliminate sports before they eliminate the Honor Code. So it makes little sense to get in an uproar about the HC just because we are pissed that our basketball season will not end the way we hoped. And that it probably never will.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pissed about this whole thing.

The way the HC Office functions vs my proposal (and several others) of eliminating HC Office and letting bishops EE take care of it, there is really only one difference. To accept that, you have to accept my assumptions.

Assumptions:
1. Only a handful of kids per year get expelled from the University for violating the Honor Code (source: Robert Baker, director of Honor Code Office circa 2000 in phone conversation with me)
2. The handful of kids expelled per year are in two categories: 1) the very most grievous, unrepentant sinners in the general student body 2) high profile, public cases where the sins usually are more of the typical variety which goes unpunished when committed by the general student body
3. My EE proposal would result in category 1 from above being dismissed from BYU through the EE process.

That leaves one difference: high profile, public cases don't get autostamp dismissal from BYU. They are treated as an individual by their bishop using same standard as would apply to average Joe student.

[Jacob]

Not only that, but I read a Bednar quote recently where he told BYU-Idaho students that the Honor Code is a training program for making and maintaining temple covenants. Argh...

I'll also ad that during a student question session when Rick's was converting to BYU-I, a student asked if there was any chance we could modify the Rick's code to match BYU's, especially concerning the wearing of knee-length shorts. Bednar responded mostly with a derisive stare. "No. Next question."