No Porn and Corn

[Pheidippides]

If I believe the church is led by God through men, and these inspired men feel it is important enough to talk about it over and over, not to mention the numerous bishops that I have seen talk about how individual members lives have been ruined by it, I think it is pretty safe to assume it can't be talked about enough.

I personally don't believe that God leads men with a strong hand on the reins, and I believe that men are fallible even while inspired. Among other things. That pretty much guts the rest of your argument as far as me and my beliefs are concerned.

[Portland Ute]

What percent of local LDS leaders view porn at least occasionally?

[CardiacCoug]

Besides, is "everybody does it" a valid excuse? The way of the world is not right. Is that not the whole point of prophets? Of revelation? To guide us away from sin, which is prevalent in the world?

Sure, point taken. But when porn is "destroying" all kinds of LDS men and LDS families, I have to ask myself why so many non-LDS guys look at porn and don't seem to suffer many negative consequences at all. I think I saw a statistic that something like 90% of men in their 20s at least occasionally look at porn on the internet.

You can't help but wonder: maybe it's not the porn itself that destroys men and their families but the LDS attitude toward porn that is the problem.

[wuapinmon]

Sure, point taken. But when porn is "destroying" all kinds of LDS men and LDS families, I have to ask myself why so many non-LDS guys look at porn and don't seem to suffer many negative consequences at all. I think I saw a statistic that something like 90% of men in their 20s at least occasionally look at porn on the internet.

You can't help but wonder: maybe it's not the porn itself that destroys men and their families but the LDS attitude toward porn that is the problem.

I never thought of porn as a problem until after I got baptized. Before that I was like, HOLY SHIT, GIRLS WILL DO THAT?

[Maximus]

I personally don't believe that God leads men with a strong hand on the reins, and I believe that men are fallible even while inspired. Among other things. That pretty much guts the rest of your argument as far as me and my beliefs are concerned.

Then what separates the church from any other church?

[Maximus]

JohnnyLingo, it's good to have you back.

I have no idea who that poster is, what he some uber mormon or what am I missing

[falafel]

Hey!!!

Golly, Falafel, you were one of my very first miserable vomitous masses. And this is how you show your gratitude?

Aw shucks.

[CardiacCoug]

I never thought of porn as a problem until after I got baptized. Before that I was like, HOLY SHIT, GIRLS WILL DO THAT?

Right, that's what I'm talking about -- and of course porn is bad and I think it's a great idea for everyone to do their best to keep porn far away from teenagers and especially pre-teens. Porn is bad, but an overreaction to it can be worse.

Divorce and marital strife over porn strikes me as analogous to the person who dies not of the mild viral infection but of his out-of-control immune response to the virus.

The fact that there are all these LDS families in turmoil because the dad wants to look at boobs on the internet just seems ridiculous to me. If we just had European-style TV showing boobs all the time, it would probably help -- maybe it would inoculate against the desire to look at porn somewhat.

[LA Ute]

Sure, point taken. But when porn is "destroying" all kinds of LDS men and LDS families, I have to ask myself why so many non-LDS guys look at porn and don't seem to suffer many negative consequences at all. I think I saw a statistic that something like 90% of men in their 20s at least occasionally look at porn on the internet.

You can't help but wonder: maybe it's not the porn itself that destroys men and their families but the LDS attitude toward porn that is the problem.

That's a striking question but I think it is way off the mark. I'll ask this (and yes, I am asking from a spiritual point of view): Do adultery or fornication spiritually harm an endowed LDS man or woman more than someone who's never taken on those covenants? Clearly they do. Just assuming that for purposes of argument, doesn't that rebut your argument that because non-LDS people don't suffer from using porn (assuming that is true) there is not a problem with it?

Your rather dismissive characterization of the church's attitude about porn as on "obsession" seems to miss the above point of view entirely. But I still love you and want you to deploy my stent someday, if I ever need one.

[YOhio]

What percent of local LDS leaders view porn at least occasionally?

Somewhere between zero percent and whatever the percentage is for the average American male.

[Non Sequitur]

Then what separates the church from any other church?

The only thing that separates us is that we have better basketball courts in our churches.

[CardiacCoug]

That's a striking question but I think it is way off the mark. I'll ask this (and yes, I am asking from a spiritual point of view): Do adultery or fornication harm an endowed LDS man or woman more than someone who's never taken on those covenants? Clearly it does. Just assuming that for purposes of argument, doesn't that rebut your argument that because non-LDS people don't suffer from using porn (assuming that is true) there is not a problem with it?

Your rather dismissive characterization of the church's attitude about porn as on "obsession" seems to miss the above point of view entirely. But I still love you and want you to deploy my stent someday, if I ever need one.

Should LDS males hold themselves to a higher standard where these things are concerned? Absolutely. Is porn bad and something LDS men should abstain from? Absolutely.

Should an LDS wife consider divorce and an LDS family fall apart because an LDS man joins the vast majority of non-LDS males by looking at porn once in a while? Absolutely not. And it seems like the emphasis on porn may lead to these over-reactive "immune responses" by wives and Church leaders to what is considered a completely normal and essentially harmless activity by most non-religious people.

[Soccermom]

Should LDS males hold themselves to a higher standard where these things are concerned? Absolutely. Is porn bad and something LDS men should abstain from? Absolutely.

Should an LDS wife consider divorce and an LDS family fall apart because an LDS man joins the vast majority of non-LDS males by looking at porn once in a while? Absolutely not. And it seems like the emphasis on porn may lead to these over-reactive "immune responses" by wives and Church leaders to what is considered a completely normal and essentially harmless activity by most non-religious people.

I don't want my boys or girls viewing porn, but if I find out one of them has viewed it, I am not going to shame them or freak them out and make them feel like they are disgusting perverts either. I want my kids to know that I understand that they were curious and it is natural to be curious and then explain why they need to control their curiosity. I don't know if all LDS moms would react that way based on what I observe.

[LA Ute]

I found the Neal Maxwell piece. It is a New Era article from 1985 entitled "These Are Your Days." Fro those working with Young Men and Young Women, it's a great article to mine for lesson concepts.

I quoted Elder Maxwell wrong. Here's his comment in context:

Among my suggestions to you in these, your days, are the following:

1. Learn to develop righteous reflexes. These will save you from processing each new temptation afresh. Those who must agonize over every temptation, not only lose time, but they may lose their souls.

2. Learn to distinguish between joy and pleasure. For instance, do not be misled by the laughter of the world; it is merely a lonely crowd trying to reassure itself.

3. Keep the faith, and the faith will keep you.

4. Have clean fun, but learn to be serious about joy.

5. Be different from the world in order to make a difference in the world.

6. Learn to see drugs, alcohol, pornography, and immorality for what they really are—bold, frontal attacks on your personal freedom and on your chances for happiness. These things destroy body and mind; they scald the taste buds of the soul. Wrongly celebrating your capacity to feel will destroy your capacity to feel.

7. Don’t let your moods blitz your beliefs. What is written in the Book of Mormon is true regardless of what is written or not written in your social calendar.

8. The clock is running on you and your life, even though you are young. As you mature, weeks become days, and months weeks, and years months. Sooner or later you may say with Jacob, “our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream” (Jacob 7:26). Furthermore, time passes most quickly when we are happily and anxiously engaged: “And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her” (Gen. 29:20).

9. You can know of yourselves that Jesus lives, that this is His Church, and that His gospel is true. But there is only one way, and there are no escalators or shortcuts: “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17).

10. You won’t always be able to explain what is happening to you or around you. Hence the need for deep trust and faith in our Heavenly Father. You can learn to say with Nephi of old, “I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things” (1 Ne. 11:17). This is all we can know at times. Yet it is enough!

Anyway, I like the piece a lot. I've quoted #2 many times to YW and YM.

[LA Ute]

Should an LDS wife consider divorce and an LDS family fall apart because an LDS man joins the vast majority of non-LDS males by looking at porn once in a while? Absolutely not.

This looks like a straw man to me, unless you can show me the church encourages wives to divorce their husbands, or approves of families falling apart, on such flimsy grounds. I'm certainly not arguing in support of such outcomes. Do you know anyone who is?

And it seems like the emphasis on porn may lead to these over-reactive "immune responses" by wives and Church leaders to what is considered a completely normal and essentially harmless activity by most non-religious people.

I hope not. I have no statistical information but it seems like a stretch to me to argue that this is actually happening on a statistically significant level.