No Porn and Corn

[Pheidippides]

Then what separates the church from any other church?

You tell me. The church is not the doctrine but merely a vehicle thereof.

[Pheidippides]

This looks like a straw man to me, unless you can show me the church encourages wives to divorce their husbands, or approves of families falling apart, on such flimsy grounds. I'm certainly not arguing in support of such outcomes. Do you know anyone who is?

To be very honest, and with the best of feelings, I think you're far to smart to make this argument in good faith. The church doesn't need to explicitly encourage this. They have set up pornography to be such a pernicious evil that many - not all, but many - women in the church view it on part with adultery, and thus it becomes grounds for divorce. It may be unintentional, but it is foreseeable. I have personal knowledge of more than a few instances in which the wife felt justified in divorce for this reason - sometimes the divorce happened, other times not - with the church preaching against pornography as the backdrop.

I don't know that the church has encouraged divorce openly from the pulpit for any specific reason in explicit terms, at least not that I can recall.

[Rosebud]

To be very honest, and with the best of feelings, I think you're far to smart to make this argument in good faith. The church doesn't need to explicitly encourage this. They have set up pornography to be such a pernicious evil that many - not all, but many - women in the church view it on part with adultery, and thus it becomes grounds for divorce. It may be unintentional, but it is foreseeable. I have personal knowledge of more than a few instances in which the wife felt justified in divorce for this reason - sometimes the divorce happened, other times not - with the church preaching against pornography as the backdrop.

I don't know that the church has encouraged divorce openly from the pulpit for any specific reason in explicit terms, at least not that I can recall.

IMO, one of the main reasons women who grew up in the church overreact to things like porn (or their husbands being less than the "perfect" true believers) is that young women's program uses lots of idealized myths to motivate us to get married in the temple and become righteous mothers in Zion. Reality can be hard on women who believe that the sacrifices they made should have brought them "perfection." Raising teens on realism instead of idealism better prepares them for the "gray" realities of adulthood.

[ERCougar]

This looks like a straw man to me, unless you can show me the church encourages wives to divorce their husbands, or approves of families falling apart, on such flimsy grounds. I'm certainly not arguing in support of such outcomes. Do you know anyone who is?



I hope not. I have no statistical information but it seems like a stretch to me to argue that this is actually happening on a statistically significant level.

Well, I don't have any studies, but let me provide a couple anecdotes. When I was 24-25, I dated two different girls, one of whom was the same age, the other being a couple of years older. I dated both of them somewhat seriously (for me...meaning more than a couple of months) and I don't recall either of them being "overly" religious or zealous, although they both were very active in church. Both had been married and divorced and when the subject came up, the reason for both was pornography. I didn't delve any further to see if there were any other issues, so there easily may have been. However, at that time in my life, I didn't feel there needed any further explanation and they didn't feel like one was needed either. I'd be curious now to talk to either of them now, but I think we were all fairly typicsal mormons and it's interesting that all of us considered those adequate grounds for divorce.

I imagined life has taught us all a few things since then, but unfortunately, that's too late for their first husbands.

[wuapinmon]

Well, I don't have any studies, but let me provide a couple anecdotes. When I was 24-25, I dated two different girls, one of whom was the same age, the other being a couple of years older. I dated both of them somewhat seriously (for me...meaning more than a couple of months) and I don't recall either of them being "overly" religious or zealous, although they both were very active in church. Both had been married and divorced and when the subject came up, the reason for both was pornography. I didn't delve any further to see if there were any other issues, so there easily may have been. However, at that time in my life, I didn't feel there needed any further explanation and they didn't feel like one was needed either. I'd be curious now to talk to either of them now, but I think we were all fairly typicsal mormons and it's interesting that all of us considered those adequate grounds for divorce.

I imagined life has taught us all a few things since then, but unfortunately, that's too late for their first husbands.

Luckily my wife loves me more than she loves anything else, otherwise, I could've easily been like those "first husbands."

[LA Ute]

To be very honest, and with the best of feelings, I think you're far to smart to make this argument in good faith. The church doesn't need to explicitly encourage this. They have set up pornography to be such a pernicious evil that many - not all, but many - women in the church view it on part with adultery, and thus it becomes grounds for divorce. It may be unintentional, but it is foreseeable. I have personal knowledge of more than a few instances in which the wife felt justified in divorce for this reason - sometimes the divorce happened, other times not - with the church preaching against pornography as the backdrop.

I don't know that the church has encouraged divorce openly from the pulpit for any specific reason in explicit terms, at least not that I can recall.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Cardiac said:

Should an LDS wife consider divorce and an LDS family fall apart because an LDS man joins the vast majority of non-LDS males by looking at porn once in a while? Absolutely not.

How is it not a straw man to suggest that divorce and families falling apart regularly occur because an LDS man looks at porn "once in a while?" No one is advocating for such an overreaction, and to blame that overreaction on the church is pretty weak, IMO.

No one here has anything but anecdotal evidence about this anyway. The stories I have heard (and about which church leaders have spoken at general conference) involve serious problems, not "once in while" porn -- for example, men, married and unmarried, who can't go more than a few waking hours without viewing hard-core pornography; missionaries who sneak away from their companions to go on-line and view the stuff, and so forth.

But those are the more sensational stories. As I understand what we're being taught, I think the bigger problem is spiritual. Porn is very habit-forming, if not addictive, and spiritually deadening. How can the missionary who's never gotten over his porn habit be effective? Isn't that a terrible, avoidable loss for him?

We're taught to "bridle" our passions, and it is not easy for any of us. As Elder Maxwell said, "[t]hese things destroy body and mind; they scald the taste buds of the soul. Wrongly celebrating your capacity to feel will destroy your capacity to feel." Why is that such a destructive teaching? It rings true to me.

I enjoy the discussions here and appreciate everyone's views - yours, Cardiac's, Rosebud's. We just see this very differently. To me, in light of the astonishing availability of very sick stuff today - for both our kids and adults - suggesting that the church is over-emphasizing the problem, and actually creating more problems by doing so, just does not ring true to me at all.

[Pheidippides]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Cardiac said:



How is it not a straw man to suggest that divorce and families falling apart regularly occur because an LDS man looks at porn "once in a while?" No one is advocating for such an overreaction, and to blame that overreaction on the church is pretty weak, IMO.

No one here has anything but anecdotal evidence about this anyway. The stories I have heard (and about which church leaders have spoken at general conference) involve serious problems, not "once in while" porn -- for example, men, married and unmarried, who can't go more than a few waking hours without viewing hard-core pornography; missionaries who sneak away from their companions to go on-line and view the stuff, and so forth.

But those are the more sensational stories. As I understand what we're being taught, I think the bigger problem is spiritual. Porn is very habit-forming, if not addictive, and spiritually deadening. How can the missionary who's never gotten over his porn habit be effective? Isn't that a terrible, avoidable loss for him?

We're taught to "bridle" our passions, and it is not easy for any of us. As Elder Maxwell said, "[t]hese things destroy body and mind; they scald the taste buds of the soul. Wrongly celebrating your capacity to feel will destroy your capacity to feel." Why is that such a destructive teaching? It rings true to me.

I enjoy the discussions here and appreciate everyone's views - yours, Cardiac's, Rosebud's. We just see this very differently. To me, in light of the astonishing availability of very sick stuff today - for both our kids and adults - suggesting that the church is over-emphasizing the problem, and actually creating more problems by doing so, just does not ring true to me at all.

What if I want to disagree to disagree?

The talks I hear from the GAs often don't distinguish between the porn addict and the casual sometime user. Both are bad, and porn is bad. We all agree on that, I think.

I am personally offended by porn as I think it is something that is calculated to use my biology (and not my reasoning) to get me to spend money.

I am more offended by the effect of the overpreaching of porn in the church - admittedly most of which (in my view) comes at the local level, although the local takes cues from the general Whether or not the problem rings true to you, it rings true to me, loud and clear, and I will walk out of any future lessons or talks on the subject and simply read my scriptures in the hall. I will let my reasons be known if asked too.

I am leaving to the side for the moment the smarmy sisters that always have something to say when porn lessons and discussions come around. Self-righteousness is a topic for a different day.

[RobinFinderson]

LOL! It looks like we are having a new porn discussion to celebrate DDD's triumphal return to Jerusalem.

[LA Ute]

What if I want to disagree to disagree?

Then our only honorable option will be to challenge one another to a duel: poison pens at 20 paces. I want YOhio as my second.

[Pheidippides]

Then our only honorable option will be to challenge one another to a duel: poison pens at 20 paces. I want YOhio as my second.

Oh no you don't! As the challenged party, I have the choice of weapons. Jelly donuts at 10 paces on fast Sunday after church. First one to eat loses. DDD is my second.

[LA Ute]

Oh no you don't! As the challenged party, I have the choice of weapons. Jelly donuts at 10 paces on fast Sunday after church. First one to eat loses. DDD is my second.

Can some of them be apple fritters?

[Pheidippides]

Can some of them be apple fritters?

Sure. Are you trying to win or lose?

[BigPiney]

Can some of them be apple fritters?

Has anyone ever had the raspberry fritter from the Provo Bakery? Those kick apple's ass.

Their orange rolls and raspberry rolls are excellent as well.

[LA Ute]

Sure. Are you trying to win or lose?

I think I have a better chance if I can whack you with one of these right off:

[statman]

Does my free agency disappear because a choice is more difficult?

Edit: I should add that I understand that it can effect making the "right" choice more difficult.

Yes - it becomes "skewed agency." The right decisions become much mroe difficult to make. That's an assault on agency - not impossible to overcome, but no longer an even playing field for the addicted person...