No Porn and Corn

[DapperDan]

I think arguing that one's agency still exists even though choices have become more "difficult" to make is just semantics.

I acknowledge that possibility. But at the same time I really wonder if a person can actually lose their free agency. And if you can't lose it, can it be assaulted?

Also, you're really defending Neal A Maxwell, so you don't have to feel dirty.

[Pheidippides]

Interesting thoughts. I think what is most helpful to me is not necessarily going through a laundry list of things we should avoid, but helping individuals to recognize personal obstacles that need to be overcome in order to find inner peace and draw closer to the Spirit.

That's as may be (and I don't disagree) but that's not what the thread is about. (Yet ) I will say, that as a one-time abuser of both, I can tell you which one was harder to overcome and did the more lasting damage. And it ain't the hardbodies doing the lambada.

[falafel]

I acknowledge that possibility. But at the same time I really wonder if a person can actually lose their free agency. And if you can't lose it, can it be assaulted?

Also, you're really defending Neal A Maxwell, so you don't have to feel dirty.

Sure it can be assaulted. Just because you can't lose 100% of it doesn't mean a 90% reduction isn't a gigantic and serious loss.

[CardiacCoug]

The one thing that I will say here is that I think addiction to food is underpreached. It is unique in that we can live without drugs, alcohol, porn, gambling or even sex, but we cannot live without food. And I deeply believe that gluttony is responsible at least as many family, marital, health and personal problems as porn, if not substantially more - as well as, in my view, against the gospel. And yet, in spite of the fact that it is something almost all of us struggle with and is also something for which the visual signs are usually apparent, we engage recklessly, openly and with less guilt than porn because of what is preached and what is not.

I'm not saying I want or expect to see the church combating this problem with the same fervor. I use it to illustrate the point that choice of topic to harp on may have everything to do with easy targets.

One time at a meeting with a visiting general authority we were invited to submit written anonymous questions. An LDS physician told me that he submitted a question along the lines of "How does exercise and eating right play into compliance with the Word of Wisdom and why isn't this emphasized more in the Church?"

The answer was very vague -- just something about how healthy habits like exercise and eating right ARE a part of the WoW, but the question was a good one, I though. Sometimes I wonder if Modern Revelation would mean that the WoW guidelines should be updated for the conditions of our culture.

After all, a McDonald's meal every day is harmful while a glass of wine every day is good for you -- maybe stuff that should be codified.

[LA Ute]

Who knows. I'm sure some people would say that they have very little "control" over their lives as a result of addiction. Besides, LA (I can't believe I'm defending him) didn't say it completely removed agency, just that these things are a "frontal assault" on agency. It would seem to me that a reduction in one's ability to make a certain choice falls into that category.

Hey!!!

Golly, Falafel, you were one of my very first miserable vomitous masses. And this is how you show your gratitude?

[myboynoah]

As anyone who has been overcome by an addiction will tell you, the more you expose yourself to the addictive substance, more difficult it becomes to resist the urge to do it.

I can't believe I'm explaining this.

In addition to addiction, there can be and usually are other consequences that affect one's free agency into the future.

[Maximus]

This anti-porn obsession in the Church is out of control. I don't get it.

Also, what is there regarding porn to talk about for more than a few seconds?

Don't look at porn. It's gross. It exploits, objectifies and demeans women. It can become an addiction (where people spend a ton of money, skip work, etc.) for a few people. I agree with all of that.

But perspective has been completely lost in the Church. Porn is considered a much bigger deal than it really is. It is absolutely ludicrous that there are so many people in the Church who think that occasionally viewing soft-core porn is a act that should destroy families and lead to divorce.

There are millions of happily married men who subscribe to soft core stuff like Playboy. It's a NORMAL thing and there is no reason whatsoever that it should destroy lives or families. My wife's grandpa still keeps his Playboy out in his den when we go visit and my wife says he has done that for 30+ years. He's a great guy with a great marriage and it's a total non-issue with his wife, as I think it should be. It's not an addiction, and it doesn't mean he hates his wife or is a bad person.

What is the big deal with nudity? It's just a naked body. If anything, sometimes I think the best cure for people looking at porn would be if everybody just saw a lot more naked people (in real life) a lot more frequently and the developed a more clinical rather than sexual attitude toward nudity and sex. It almost seems like the forbidden nature of porn to LDS people just fuels the interest and desire to look at porn.

If one feels the prophet is inspired, and receives revelation from God to guide the church....

Besides, is "everybody does it" a valid excuse? The way of the world is not right. Is that not the whole point of prophets? Of revelation? To guide us away from sin, which is prevalent in the world?

[ERCougar]

A study suggesting that the constant harping may be counterproductive:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind/201009/watching-porn-the-problem-must-not-be-named

Cardiac's absolutely correct,IMO.

How come this didn't get more play? I guess when you succinctly resolve the issue at hand, there's just not anything more to say.

In all seriousness, I think this is a really interesting idea and a cool new direction of research. I also wonder if it explains the statistics linking the highest porn downloads with Utah zip codes. The church needs a new approach--this much is clear.

Back to your discussions of the meaning of "agency".

[ERCougar]

If one feels the prophet is inspired, and receives revelation from God to guide the church....

Besides, is "everybody does it" a valid excuse? The way of the world is not right. Is that not the whole point of prophets? Of revelation? To guide us away from sin, which is prevalent in the world?

So how well is this "inspired" method of dealing with pornography working? Do you think we're winning this one?

I don't think anyone is saying that getting deeply involved in porn is a good thing, but normalizing it a bit might allow people to view it objectively and non-obsessively. Again...the church needs some new methods. "No Porn and Corn" isn't working.

[Maximus]

I agree with you here.

I don't think LDS church members should look at porn. I also don't believe porn in an of itself destroys more families/marriages than any other thing that can be abused including:

- alcohol
- tobacco
- gambling
- prescription drugs
- over/under eating
- over/under spending (money issues are huge cause of destroyed marriages)

The incessant harping and guilting on porn is making the situation worse than it should be.

If I believe the church is led by God through men, and these inspired men feel it is important enough to talk about it over and over, not to mention the numerous bishops that I have seen talk about how individual members lives have been ruined by it, I think it is pretty safe to assume it can't be talked about enough.

[Maximus]

So how well is this "inspired" method of dealing with pornography working? Do you think we're winning this one?

I don't think anyone is saying that getting deeply involved in porn is a good thing, but normalizing it a bit might allow people to view it objectively and non-obsessively. Again...the church needs some new methods. "No Porn and Corn" isn't working.

How can we measure it? Is it measurable by statistical methods? There are so many factors that play into if someone looks at porn and why porn is an increasing trend that it is impossible to conclude that the church talking about it so much causes members to watch it more.

Again, to what purpose is there inspiration to prophets if not to guide the saints away from the evils of the world?

Normalize it? Really? Since when is normalizing sin something that God has ever undertaken? Drinking is normal across the world, should we normalize that? Same with many other things.

[ERCougar]

How can we measure it? Is it measurable by statistical methods? There are so many factors that play into if someone looks at porn and why porn is an increasing trend that it is impossible to conclude that the church talking about it so much causes members to watch it more.

Again, to what purpose is there inspiration to prophets if not to guide the saints away from the evils of the world?

Normalize it? Really? Since when is normalizing sin something that God has ever undertaken? Drinking is normal across the world, should we normalize that? Same with many other things.

Well, here's one way:

http://polizeros.com/2009/02/28/the-biggest-consumer-of-online-porn-is-utah/

Sure there are problems with this study, but it's not the first to say this, and no way do I buy the ridiculous idea that non-Utahns just go to the store to buy it.

And about normalizing sin, I remember God doing it in Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

[Maximus]

Well, here's one way:

http://polizeros.com/2009/02/28/the-biggest-consumer-of-online-porn-is-utah/

Sure there are problems with this study, but it's not the first to say this, and no way do I buy the ridiculous idea that non-Utahns just go to the store to buy it.

And about normalizing sin, I remember God doing it in Romans 3:23

Or it could be people in utah are more sexually deprived.

And what do you mean by normalizing? I believe God also said that while everyone sins, we need to strive to obey the commandments. He certainly didnt say everyone sins, so dont worry if you do.

[ERCougar]

Or it could be people in utah are more sexually deprived.

And what do you mean by normalizing? I believe God also said that while everyone sins, we need to strive to obey the commandments. He certainly didnt say everyone sins, so dont worry if you do.

Another weak explanation. If you're meaning they're deprived because of the no premarital sex rule, I call BS. What teen or guy in his 20s pays for porn? We're talking paid subscriptions here. People pay when they're either really deeply into stuff they can't get for free (in which case, things are probably getting pretty violent or way out there, and frankly, I'd rather them have normal sex) or when they are technologically retarded (probably old enough to be married) or have disposable income (again, old enough to be married). We're also not the only ones to limit premarital sex.

If you're just talking general sexual repression in a religious society, then fine--attack the root of the problem. Replace "No Porn and Corn" night with a human sexuality night. Make it a couples problem and not a hammer on the priesthood issue. In short, be a little wiser than "Just Say No".

And by normalizing it, I don't mean condoning it. I mean, stop the self-condemnation. How would it be if a bishop/SP/GA said, "yeah, I think Megan Fox is hot and I'd love to see her naked (or even have), but I've found that kind of thing just doesn't make me happy, at least in any meaningful way, and really just leaves me empty." That's infinitely more effective than a guilt trip.

[scottie]

Or it could be people in utah are more sexually deprived.

And what do you mean by normalizing? I believe God also said that while everyone sins, we need to strive to obey the commandments. He certainly didnt say everyone sins, so dont worry if you do.

JohnnyLingo, it's good to have you back.