I learned in church today

[byu71]

It seems to me that ward members should know that's where part of their tithing money is going, if that was how it was done.

Except this isn't an organization you are forced to belong to like the government. You volunteer to be a member of the organization and you volunteer to send them money. Your rights end there.

Now if the organization was more transparent, perhaps they would get more members particiapting or paying in, but that is their decision not the members. Members have no vote or say.

[Mrs. Funk]

I think most, if not all, progmos would complain at a pitch much higher than the piercing shrills of the women of Srbrnca if local LDS Church leaders got a stipend. Look at the newfound devotion to the widow's mite most found over the sexy new mall. Now, in all honest I think part of being progressive is to whine and whine and whine. When there isn't something legitimate to whine about then find something illegitimate and whine and whine and whine. So I am not what one might call a real objective prediction maker in this lane, but I just think if Bishops were getting enough cash to make the job, as presently defined, worth their while and a portion of those pre-disposed to whining are cut out of ever getting the job because their outlooks on enough issues are at odds with the majority of the decision makers, that strikes me as a very fertile ground for those pre-disposed to whining and questioning to whine like noone else. Besides all that, I think it would make the Church much worse. If the issue is to somehow lift the burden off of Bishops better to change the expectations and demands rather than to create incentives. However, I think Bishop's duties have developed culturally and IMO that is much of what is such a burden for them to deal with.

Given that I identify as a progressive Mormon, I'm not totally sure how to respond to this.

I don't have a perfect solution to this, of course. Probably a supplemental stipend to ease pressures from paid work, but not to replace it entirely. At least I think that's a model that could have some utility in the Mormon community. As for whining it's impossible to make everybody happy, but your characterization of progmos is practically a caricature.

I attended a Baptist elementary school as a kid. The church had a career pastor whose house was owned by the church and whose salary was paid by the congregation. It was literally his job to oversee the temporal and spiritual needs of his flock. I see value in that model. As to how it would be implemented within the LDS church, there's probably a variety of solutions.

[Mrs. Funk]

Except this isn't an organization you are forced to belong to like the government. You volunteer to be a member of the organization and you volunteer to send them money. Your rights end there.

Now if the organization was more transparent, perhaps they would get more members particiapting or paying in, but that is their decision not the members. Members have no vote or say.

I know plenty of people who don't care to pay tithing because they don't know where the money goes, so it appears this model may be backfiring.

[Northwestcoug]

I wouldn't have a problem with that in principle. But if it became a career-type position we might end up with CES-type people running the church. That would not be a good thing.

I agree. I'm probably not saying anything revolutionary, but I think the whole lay clergy philosophy in the church could use a serious overhaul. Beginning with the duties of a bishop. Halve the meetings, halve the interviews, halve the expectations of counseling. The demands on their time should not have to compete with family and work responsibility on an almost daily basis.

[Mrs. Funk]

I agree. I'm probably not saying anything revolutionary, but I think the whole lay clergy philosophy in the church could use a serious overhaul. Beginning with the duties of a bishop. Halve the meetings, halve the interviews, halve the expectations of counseling. The demands on their time should not have to compete with family and work responsibility on an almost daily basis.

Or perhaps this is the real solution. Great points. It seems like implementing such changes WOULD be revolutionary.

[Goatnapper'96]

I agree. I'm probably not saying anything revolutionary, but I think the whole lay clergy philosophy in the church could use a serious overhaul. Beginning with the duties of a bishop. Halve the meetings, halve the interviews, halve the expectations of counseling. The demands on their time should not have to compete with family and work responsibility on an almost daily basis.

I agree with this. I am not an advocate of creating any financial incentive to get people to serve because I believe in sacrifice, but I agree that changes to the expectations and duties would be beneficial for the Church. Especially on the counseling front.

[SandYFan]

Why would anyone want to be president?

You get rich if you're elected president. President Obama's net worth is far greater now than it would have been if he'd lost in 2008.

[Goatnapper'96]

I know plenty of people who don't care to pay tithing because they don't know where the money goes, so it appears this model may be backfiring.

Do you think many of them will end up having issues when the find out where the money goes? I do.

I agree that the books should be more transparent but I have no illusions of grandeur that those witholding tithing funds would not find objectionable enough disbursements of the money to justify continuing to not pay tithing. Tithing, like most things in any faith based belief system, is a function of faith. There are always going to be things the Church spends money on that people don't like and if one feels strongly enough about the lack of transparency to not have faith in the LDS Church to be a good steward of their donated monies, I am confident that if those folks had the knowledge of where the money went their perspectives would not change wrt to paying tithing. But instead of whining about the uncertainty they would at least be whining about where the money eventually went!

[RC Vikings]

I agree. I'm probably not saying anything revolutionary, but I think the whole lay clergy philosophy in the church could use a serious overhaul. Beginning with the duties of a bishop. Halve the meetings, halve the interviews, halve the expectations of counseling. The demands on their time should not have to compete with family and work responsibility on an almost daily basis.

I agree with this. I am not an advocate of creating any financial incentive to get people to serve because I believe in sacrifice, but I agree that changes to the expectations and duties would be beneficial for the Church. Especially on the counseling front.

I figure our middle class ward in Rexburg pulls in over a million dollars a year in tithing and other contributions. It seems like a part of that could go to professionals and take some pressure off the bishop.

[Eddie]

I agree. I'm probably not saying anything revolutionary, but I think the whole lay clergy philosophy in the church could use a serious overhaul. Beginning with the duties of a bishop. Halve the meetings, halve the interviews, halve the expectations of counseling. The demands on their time should not have to compete with family and work responsibility on an almost daily basis.

Maybe that whole idea of assistant bishops actually has merit.

[Moliere]

I agree. I'm probably not saying anything revolutionary, but I think the whole lay clergy philosophy in the church could use a serious overhaul. Beginning with the duties of a bishop. Halve the meetings, halve the interviews, halve the expectations of counseling. The demands on their time should not have to compete with family and work responsibility on an almost daily basis.

Probably the biggest overhaul that is needed is for members of the ward to step up and fulfill their simple callings. If primary teachers showed up or got their own substitutes, or the RS visited new mothers, or youth leaders showed up for mutual, or rechartering got done by the scout committee (hell, if the scout committee did anything) then the bishop's responsibilities would be signficantly lightened. As DFU famously said (look below in my sig line)....

[venkman]

How is a stipend going to give bishops more time with their families? They still need to work their full-time job. As Moliere said, the number one reason by far that bishops are overworked is because too many of us are half-assing it.

[SCcoug]

How is a stipend going to give bishops more time with their families? They still need to work their full-time job. As Moliere said, the number one reason by far that bishops are overworked is because too many of us are half-assing it.

Once they get paid I could see a subset of members half ass it even more because hey now they're getting paid to do it.

This example was mentioned in another thread but would also apply here.

A pair of economists who heard of this dilemma - it turned out to be a rather common one - offered a solution: fine the tardy parents. Why, after all, should the day-care center take care of these kids for free?

The economists decided to test their solution by conducting a study of ten day-care centers in Haifa, Israel. The study lasted twenty weeks, but the fine was not introduced immediately. For the first four weeks, the economists simply kept track of the number of parents who came late; there were, on average, eight late pickups per week per day-care center. In the fifth week, the fine was enacted. It was announced that any parent arriving more than ten minutes late would pay $3 per child for each incident. The fee would be added to the parents' monthly bill, which was roughly $380.

After the fine was enacted, the number of late pickups promptly went ... up. Before long there were twenty late pickups per week, more than double the original average. The incentive had plainly backfired.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/bo...vitt.html?_r=0

[Mrs. Funk]

How is a stipend going to give bishops more time with their families? They still need to work their full-time job. As Moliere said, the number one reason by far that bishops are overworked is because too many of us are half-assing it.

We could ordain SAHMs/SAHPs as bishops and subsidize childcare for their time away. Another way to divide up the work.

[Paperback Writer]

Probably the biggest overhaul that is needed is for members of the ward to step up and fulfill their simple callings. If primary teachers showed up or got their own substitutes, or the RS visited new mothers, or youth leaders showed up for mutual, or rechartering got done by the scout committee (hell, if the scout committee did anything) then the bishop's responsibilities would be signficantly lightened. As DFU famously said (look below in my sig line)....

IMO, the church needs to restructure and re-examine the benefits and demands of all of its programs. For starters, just get rid of LDS mandatory scouting - make it a volunteer organization like the rest of the BSA. Two-hour primary can go as well. Have a children SS before or after Sacrament meeting and let everyone go home. I never expected or received a visit from RS or visiting teachers or home teachers for that matter when a child was born into my family - where do these exepctations come from? Peoples' responsibilities would be significantly lightened when the church quits wasting everyone's time.