John Milton, Joseph Smith and LOST

[pellegrino]

The epic fictional poem Paradise Lost was most emphatically a huge influence on "Mormon Doctrine" (such as it is), and I have been saying this for a long time:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27000

The seed of the whole war in heaven scenario, as I understand it, was a brief and ambiguous reference in Revelations. However, the Mormon view of it tracks Paradise Lost completely. (By the way, as I noted on Cougarguard, the mark of Cain doctrine is in Beouwulf.)

Mormonism is a movement and a creed forged by Northern European immagrants including primarily those of scandinavian and UK roots. (When I go to the Nordic Museum here in Seattle it's spooky; all the furnishings, Christian images, food, etc. take me right back to rural Utah.) It should not be surprising that the most influential and admired poetic work in the English language, about God and Satan and pre-existence and all that stuff, would influence Mormon theology. It's not unlike the influence of Greek culture and literary works on Christianity's advent.

I can agree with most of that. Have you heard of Terryl Givens' newest book on the concept of pre-existence in Western culture? I haven't read it yet, but I read a review of it and it seems really interesting.

[Mormon Red Death]

The epic fictional poem Paradise Lost was most emphatically a huge influence on "Mormon Doctrine" (such as it is), and I have been saying this for a long time:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27000

The seed of the whole war in heaven scenario, as I understand it, was a brief and ambiguous reference in Revelations. However, the Mormon view of it tracks Paradise Lost completely. (By the way, as I noted on Cougarguard, the mark of Cain doctrine is in Beouwulf.)

Mormonism is a movement and a creed forged by Northern European immagrants including primarily those of scandinavian and UK roots. (When I go to the Nordic Museum here in Seattle it's spooky; all the furnishings, Christian images, food, etc. take me right back to rural Utah.) It should not be surprising that the most influential and admired poetic work in the English language, about God and Satan and pre-existence and all that stuff, would influence Mormon theology. It's not unlike the influence of Greek culture and literary works on Christianity's advent.

Isaiah 14 talks about it as well.

[SeattleUte]

I can agree with most of that. Have you heard of Terryl Givens' newest book on the concept of pre-existence in Western culture? I haven't read it yet, but I read a review of it and it seems really interesting.

Anymore I don't read books about Mormonism per se, particularly by Mormon apologists (or antagonists). But I have dived into this,

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-First-Three-Thousand-Years/dp/0670021261/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270787364&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years (9780670021260): Diarmaid MacCulloch: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ3n9pYfL.@@AMEPARAM@@51NQ3n9pYfL[/ame]

and I seee that it has a couple of references to the LDS Church in the index. Those pages are ahead of me.

[pellegrino]

Anymore I don't read books about Mormonism per se, particularly by Mormon apologists (or antagonists). But I have dived into this,

Amazon.com: Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years (9780670021260): Diarmaid MacCulloch: Books

and I seee that it has a couple of references to the LDS Church in the index. Those pages are ahead of me.

Givens' book only dedicates a small section to the LDS version of the pre-existence, maybe 15 or so pages is all. The rest deals with Plato, early Christian fathers (Origen and Augustine) and then he discusses Descartes, Leibniz, Hume and Kant. If you want to see a review (unfortunately for you it focuses more on the Mormon section) here's a link. It's on my summer reading list. If it is as interesting as it has been billed I may post something on it.

http://boaporg.wordpress.com/2010/01...uls-had-wings/

[SeattleUte]

Givens' book only dedicates a small section to the LDS version of the pre-existence, maybe 15 or so pages is all. The rest deals with Plato, early Christian fathers (Origen and Augustine) and then he discusses Descartes, Leibniz, Hume and Kant. If you want to see a review (unfortunately for you it focuses more on the Mormon section) here's a link. It's on my summer reading list. If it is as interesting as it has been billed I may post something on it.

http://boaporg.wordpress.com/2010/01...uls-had-wings/

thx

[LA Ute]

Do we (or scholars, for that matter) really believe that these theological notions originate with Milton?

I'll stand up for apologetics by noting that Mormons believe our religion is the oldest on earth and began with Adam, that any true knowledge about God and his plan of happiness originated with God, and that we view the notion that Joseph Smith had anything "new" to say in that light.

[SeattleUte]

I'll stand up for apologetics by noting that Mormons believe our religion is the oldest on earth and began with Adam, that any true knowledge about God and his plan of happiness originated with God, and that we view the notion that Joseph Smith had anything "new" to say in that light.

Do you think John Milton received his war in heaven scenario via revelation?

I'm not being flip.

[jay santos]

Do you think John Milton received his war in heaven scenario via revelation?

I'm not being flip.

I've looked a little more into this and as Indy suggests, apologists believe there are references to these themes in apocrypha.

[SeattleUte]

I've looked a little more into this and as Indy suggests, apologists believe there are references to these themes in apocrypha.

I wouldn't be surprised, actually.

[LA Ute]

Do you think John Milton received his war in heaven scenario via revelation?

I'm not being flip.

No.

EDIT: I got called away, didn't mean to send such a curt message. I was just mildly offering the thought that since we Mormons believe Adam and Joseph Smith pretty much knew and believed the same things about religion, we would by and large reject the idea that Joseph Smith was influenced by Milton or the Greeks, or anyone else, or that in his writings he borrowed ideas from others. But that's a matter of belief.

[SeattleUte]

No.

I bet SIEQ would not rule out that possibility.

[UtahDan]

I bet SIEQ would not rule out that possibility.

You have officially arrived SIEQ. SU has appealed to authority and that authority is you. Treat yourself to your beverage of choice, sir!

[PaloAltoCougar]

I bet SIEQ would not rule out that possibility.

I don't think I would either, but my definition of revelation is fairly broad. I think the U.S. Constitution, Mozart's Requiem, Michaelangelo's Pieta, and a host of other artistic and intellectual works are/were revelations with a divine source. But I'm a big tent guy.

[SeattleUte]

I don't think I would either, but my definition of revelation is fairly broad. I think the U.S. Constitution, Mozart's Requiem, Michaelangelo's Pieta, and a host of other artistic and intellectual works are/were revelations with a divine source. But I'm a big tent guy.

ME TOO!

[SeattleUte]

You have officially arrived SIEQ. SU has appealed to authority and that authority is you. Treat yourself to your beverage of choice, sir!

I bet you didn't expect that pitch in my repertoir.