John Milton, Joseph Smith and LOST

[LA Ute]

I bet SIEQ would not rule out that possibility.

I would not either. Milton might have been inspired, but I wasn't talking about that. (See my edited response, which crossed with yours in the ether.) The 1978 "Statement of the First Presidency Regarding God's Love for All Mankind" so suggests:

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

Read the whole thing, it's pretty interesting. (I haven't got time to find a better copy, but the one I linked to is legit. It was referred to here, for example, at fn. 1.)

[il Padrino Ute]

I don't think I would either, but my definition of revelation is fairly broad. I think the U.S. Constitution, Mozart's Requiem, Michaelangelo's Pieta, and a host of other artistic and intellectual works are/were revelations with a divine source. But I'm a big tent guy.

I notice you shy away from mentioning the MacMahon to Brown pass. Can I take that to mean that Edwards and/or Scovil did not receive revelation?

[PaloAltoCougar]

I notice you shy away from mentioning the MacMahon to Brown pass. Can I take that to mean that Edwards and/or Scovil did not receive revelation?

Hey, some things are so obviously divine that it would be mere surplusage to point them out. That Bill Schoepflin (the guy who blocked an SMU punt to set up BYU's comeback), Brown and McMahon were/are all Catholics is further testament to the truth that the divine can reach down and touch us all.

[il Padrino Ute]

Hey, some things are so obviously divine that it would be mere surplusage to point them out. That Bill Schoepflin (the guy who blocked an SMU punt to set up BYU's comeback), Brown and McMahon were/are all Catholics is further testament to the truth that the divine can reach down and touch us all.

If word gets to CB that you've disclosed the religious affiliation of those three players, it might shake the testimonies of many. One Catholic is fine. Two is pushing it. But three?

At the judgment bar, don't be surprised that told to stand in a different line for bringing down so many.

[jay santos]

The issue I would have if the argument is that both Milton and Joseph Smith received revelation independently is the specificity of each. Why would Milton be the one guy besides Joseph Smith in the history of the world to receive such specific details of knowledge that are fairly important to the gospel and plan of salvation?

[SloanHater]

The issue I would have if the argument is that both Milton and Joseph Smith received revelation independently is the specificity of each. Why would Milton be the one guy besides Joseph Smith in the history of the world to receive such specific details of knowledge that are fairly important to the gospel and plan of salvation?

I must admit I'm a bit perplexed at your insistence that JS Jr. lifted large chunks of 'doctrine' from Paradise Lost.

If anything, I've read that Milton simply rewrote and romanticized the Bible.

[LA Ute]

The issue I would have if the argument is that both Milton and Joseph Smith received revelation independently is the specificity of each. Why would Milton be the one guy besides Joseph Smith in the history of the world to receive such specific details of knowledge that are fairly important to the gospel and plan of salvation?

Who is saying that? Beside, "receiving a portion of God's light" is different from receiving revelation, IMO. For example, the Constitution was divinely inspired but that doesn't mean angels were in the room drafting it.

[jay santos]

Who is saying that? Beside, "receiving a portion of God's light" is different from receiving revelation, IMO. For example, the Constitution was divinely inspired but that doesn't mean angels were in the room drafting it.

I didn't say anyone's saying that here. SU said SIEQ might say that. PAC suggested it's possible, though wasn't direct about it. I didn't direct that post at anyone here, just the idea that Milton received revelation from God.

When you see Joseph Smith's doctrine correlating to some prior non-canonical source, be it Swedenborg, Mason temple ceremony, or Milton's war in heaven, I think it requires an answer.

Various answers could be
1. Joseph Smith borrowed it from that source, but he didn't lift doctrine he lifted something else that helped further the religion but nothing that was inherently important doctrine. This works for me as an explanation for the Mason temple ceremony connection.
2. The prior non-canonical source was led by the Holy Ghost to come up with something close to the truth. Joseph came up with his doctrine either completely independently or used it as a starting place to pray and seek revelation. This works for me for Swedenborg but not Milton for some reason. I think it's because Swedenborg's doctrines had biblical foundations where Milton's war in heaven doesn't.
3. The prior non-canonical source had a prior source we know nothing about that links back to non-published scriptural writings or prophetic teachings. This seems possible with Milton and the apocrypha. I've also heard this used as an explanation of both Moroni and Paul using faith, hope, charity.
4. Some other reason.

If someone cites #2 above as a reason for Milton and JS correlating on doctrine, and I question that, it doesn't mean I don't think there are any other possible faithful reasons.

I will be vulnerable here and admit the older I get and the more I read, the more I wonder when JS was speaking true revelation and when he was shooting from the hip.

[SeattleUte]

I must admit I'm a bit perplexed at your insistence that JS Jr. lifted large chunks of 'doctrine' from Paradise Lost.

If anything, I've read that Milton simply rewrote and romanticized the Bible.

This is pretty bad. Milton did much more than what you say. The Bible has little of Milton's cosmos in it, including how the war in heaven unfolded, and his Satan, including Satan's charsimatic and engaging personality and biography, is entirely his invention.

Santos' point is that the details of Paradise Lost and the LDS war in heaven scenario appear to originate with Milton and there are too many parallels absent third source to dismiss as coincidence.

This is a very interesting subject that is not getting the drill down here that it deserves. Where are our apologist theologeons like Pelagius? Typical.

[SeattleUte]

Wikipedia has a brief summary on Milton's inspiration in the Book of Revelations, and its various interpretations in Christianity. Apparently American preachers were the fisrt to start preaching about a pre-existence war in heaven, including Jonathan Edwards. Paradise Lost is the probable inspiration for this. Much of this folkore was probably redolent in the atmosphere during the Second Great Awakening that so influenced Joseph Smith and certainly he heard this stuff from various preachers in early America where theology was of course pretty free wheeling. So he probably didn't get it from Paradise Lost directly, but from others who did.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven"]War in Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Hieronymus_Bosch_073.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Hieronymus_Bosch_073.jpg/280px-Hieronymus_Bosch_073.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/4/4a/Hieronymus_Bosch_073.jpg/280px-Hieronymus_Bosch_073.jpg[/ame]

[creekster]

This is pretty bad. Milton did much more than what you say. The Bible has little of Milton's cosmos in it, including how the war in heaven unfolded, and his Satan, including Satan's charsimatic and engaging personality and biography, is entirely his invention.

Santos' point is that the details of Paradise Lost and the LDS war in heaven scenario appear to originate with Milton and there are too many parallels absent third source to dismiss as coincidence.

This is a very interesting subject that is not getting the drill down here that it deserves. Where are our apologist theologeons like Pelagius? Typical.

The presentation of Milton in this thread doesn't even rise to wikipedia levels. Before we can analyze what JS could possibly be accused of lifting we would need to know what Milton actually said. Milton was writing either as a Calvinist or in a Calvinist milieu and so the notions of free will and predestination were important to him and his audience. It has been a long time since I read Milton (a LONG time) but I don't recall the parallel to JS's version of the pre-existence as being startlingly close.

I think we make an error when we speculate about sourcing of works such as Paradise Lost using our modern sensibilities. While the bible doesn't spell out a war in heaven or Lucifer's personality very clearly, there are references upon which Milton's story can be hung like coats on pegs on the wall. In our modern world these are obscure and remote scriptural references, but to Milton and JS they would have been familiar friends and perhaps, by their very uniqueness, even demanded attention and explanation.

SU and Santos, surely you don't mean to suggest that no one had conceived of a war in heaven prior to Milton?

[SeattleUte]

The presentation of Milton in this thread doesn't even rise to wikipedia levels. Before we can analyze what JS could possibly be accused of lifting we would need to know what Milton actually said. Milton was writing either as a Calvinist or in a Calvinist milieu and so the notions of free will and predestination were important to him and his audience. It has been a long time since I read Milton (a LONG time) but I don't recall the parallel to JS's version of the pre-existence as being startlingly close.

I think we make an error when we speculate about sourcing of works such as Paradise Lost using our modern sensibilities. While the bible doesn't spell out a war in heaven or Lucifer's personality very clearly, there are references upon which Milton's story can be hung like coats on pegs on the wall. In our modern world these are obscure and remote scriptural references, but to Milton and JS they would have been familiar friends and perhaps, by their very uniqueness, even demanded attention and explanation.

SU and Santos, surely you don't mean to suggest that no one had conceived of a war in heaven prior to Milton?

I'm not aware of a prior source, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was one either. I don't believe pre-existence war in heaven has been a common teaching or doctrine in mainstream religions before Milton. Even the linked article says this is not the traditional Christian intrepretation of the Revelations passage.

[LA Ute]

Wikipedia has a brief summary on Milton's inspiration in the Book of Revelations, and its various interpretations in Christianity. Apparently American preachers were the fisrt to start preaching about a pre-existence war in heaven, including Jonathan Edwards. Much of this folkore was probably redolent in the atmosphere during the Second Great Awakening that so influenced Joseph Smith and certainly he heard this stuff from various preachers in early America where theology was of course pretty free wheeling.

War in Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SU, that's definitely a possibility, so I will grant you that. Let me ask again: What is it with your missionary zeal on stuff like this? It is just odd. You come across like the little devil we all saw in cartoons when we were kids. You are sitting on our shoulders. constantly whispering "Joseph Smith made it all up! It's obvious!" I am guesing that is not who you want to be.

But maybe you do. I'm just sayin'.

[creekster]

I'm not aware of a prior source . . .

Other than the scriptural passages to which the wikipedia article refers, you mean. IOW, Milton's story was an interpretation and embellishment of ideas he found in scripture. These are the same scriptures JS read. Could he have been influenced by Milton's ideas? Of course. But so what? What does it even prove? It proves that one of the greatest writers in the English language read biblical passages and interpreted them in a manner that made sense to him and used the general outline of that interpreted story to expound on free will because those scriptures lend themselves to such a discussion. Centuries later JS reads those same scriptures and is inspired to expound on those same principles. I am looking very closely but I am failing to see a smoking gun here.

[SeattleUte]

Other than the scriptural passages to which the wikipedia article refers, you mean. IOW, Milton's story was an interpretation and embellishment of ideas he found in scripture. These are the same scriptures JS read. Could he have been influenced by Milton's ideas? Of course. But so what? What does it even prove? It proves that one of the greatest writers in the English language read biblical passages and interpreted them in a manner that made sense to him and used the general outline of that interpreted story to expound on free will because those scriptures lend themselves to such a discussion. Centuries later JS reads those same scriptures and is inspired to expound on those same principles. I am looking very closely but I am failing to see a smoking gun here.

I'm not trying to prove anything other than the extensive intertexuality in the entire Western Canon. I think it's clear Mormon theology developed in a strikingly similar way as Christianity, by the way. I'm sure SIEQ and others here would agree. I don't need a smoking gun and that is not my paradigm in any event. This is just an interesting subject and I'm adding to the discussion rather than just dismissing it.