John Milton, Joseph Smith and LOST

[SeattleUte]

SU, that's definitely a possibility, so I will grant you that. Let me ask again: What is it with your missionary zeal on stuff like this? It is just odd. You come across like the little devil we all saw in cartoons when we were kids. You are sitting on our shoulders. constantly whispering "Joseph Smith made it all up! It's obvious!" I am guesing that is not who you want to be.

But maybe you do. I'm just sayin'.

As you see from my first link in this thread, you are not the first person who has called me Satan.

[creekster]

I'm not trying to prove anything other than the extensive intertexuality in the entire Western Canon. I think it's clear Mormon theology developed in a strikingly similar way as Christianity, by the way. I'm sure SIEQ and others here would agree. I don't need a smoking gun and that is not my paradigm in any event. This is just an interesting subject and I'm adding to the discussion rather than just dismissing it.

Your own words betray your intent in your many posts earlier in this thread (e.g. calling for apologist theologians?). Be that as it may, I am not trying to dismiss the conversation, only the notion that the 'discovery' that Milton wrote about the war in heaven is thus an indictment of Joseph Smith's description of a war in heaven.

Like you, I find the topic very interesting and it makes me want to go back and read Milton again (I have reached the conclusion that youth is like great literature; they are both wasted on the young). Indeed, in my mind, I find it very interesting that someone as brilliant as Milton and as wrapped up in examining religion's ideas of free will, as he was, would see the same Christian texts lead to a version of the pre-existence that might be similar to the one Joseph Smith described. Either way, Milton stands alone and obviously deserves his own discussion.

[SeattleUte]

Your own words betray your intent in your many posts earlier in this thread (e.g. calling for apologist theologians?). Be that as it may, I am not trying to dismiss the conversation, only the notion that the 'discovery' that Milton wrote about the war in heaven is thus an indictment of Joseph Smith's description of a war in heaven.

Like you, I find the topic very interesting and it makes me want to go back and read Milton again (I have reached the conclusion that youth is like great literature; they are both wasted on the young). Indeed, in my mind, I find it very interesting that someone as brilliant as Milton and as wrapped up in examining religion's ideas of free will, as he was, would see the same Christian texts lead to a version of the pre-existence that might be similar to the one Joseph Smith described. Either way, Milton stands alone and obviously deserves his own discussion.

Harold Bloom believes Shakespeare's Iago (Othello) was Milton's inspiration for his Satan character. I have no opinion on that but it's interesting. In a way it seems (to me) backwards that Shakespear preceded Milton in time.

[jay santos]

The presentation of Milton in this thread doesn't even rise to wikipedia levels.

The article I linked in from the New Era was written by a female BYU English lit scholar. Her article is where I get the connection.

[creekster]

The article I linked in from the New Era was written by a female BYU English lit scholar. Her article is where I get the connection.

Indeed it was. Sorry, I missed that link the first time around. It is na interesting article and it does spell out much more of the similarities ebtween LDS doctrine/dogma and Milton (while also noting but not describing differences) . OTOH, it also makes refernce to scriptures and provides no basis to conclude that these ideas originated with Milton.

[SeattleUte]

Your own words betray your intent in your many posts earlier in this thread (e.g. calling for apologist theologians?). Be that as it may, I am not trying to dismiss the conversation, only the notion that the 'discovery' that Milton wrote about the war in heaven is thus an indictment of Joseph Smith's description of a war in heaven.

Like you, I find the topic very interesting and it makes me want to go back and read Milton again (I have reached the conclusion that youth is like great literature; they are both wasted on the young). Indeed, in my mind, I find it very interesting that someone as brilliant as Milton and as wrapped up in examining religion's ideas of free will, as he was, would see the same Christian texts lead to a version of the pre-existence that might be similar to the one Joseph Smith described. Either way, Milton stands alone and obviously deserves his own discussion.

Aren't you a fan of His Dark Materils? That has increased the public's awareness of Paradise Lost.

[creekster]

Aren't you a fan of His Dark Materils? That has increased the public's awareness of Paradise Lost.

Yes I am a fan of those wicked, wicked books.

[jay santos]

From the New Era article:

Milton themes that correlate to LDS doctrine:
--Milton seems to have felt, like us, that ambition, Satan’s desire for high position and personal glory, was his chief failing.
--The rebellion of Satan and his angels, of course, led to the war in heaven and their expulsion from the Father’s presence. Milton even specifies (IV. 156) that “A third part of the Gods” were ejected with Lucifer.
--It is interesting, though, that Milton seems to have rejected the widely-held 17th century doctrine that God created the earth from nothing. He sees instead the creation as a process of organizing already existent matter:
--Milton even seems to have foreseen the eventual celestialization of the earth,
--(free agency) The belief widely held in Milton’s day, that every man is predestined to either heaven or hell is incompatible with the principle of free agency. Milton repeatedly insists that man was created free to choose. In speaking of the rebellious angels, the Father emphasizes that they too were free to choose, for agency is an eternal principle
--(Christ in the council of Heaven) The Father calls the angelic host together and asks for a volunteer to save man. Even here, the principle of free agency is at work. The Father asks someone to offer himself. The heavenly host are mute. No intercessor appears. Then the Son, acting freely and willingly, without coercion, steps forward.
--(Godhead) One of the most exciting things about Paradise Lost is what Milton seems to be saying about the Godhead. It is quite clear that he treats the Father and the Son as separate beings.
--the Son is designated by the Father to perform the creation


These are doctrines we tend to think originated with Joseph Smith and don't appear in the Bible or other Christian churches.

[creekster]

From the New Era article:

Milton themes that correlate to LDS doctrine:
--Milton seems to have felt, like us, that ambition, Satan’s desire for high position and personal glory, was his chief failing.
--The rebellion of Satan and his angels, of course, led to the war in heaven and their expulsion from the Father’s presence. Milton even specifies (IV. 156) that “A third part of the Gods” were ejected with Lucifer.
--It is interesting, though, that Milton seems to have rejected the widely-held 17th century doctrine that God created the earth from nothing. He sees instead the creation as a process of organizing already existent matter:
--Milton even seems to have foreseen the eventual celestialization of the earth,
--(free agency) The belief widely held in Milton’s day, that every man is predestined to either heaven or hell is incompatible with the principle of free agency. Milton repeatedly insists that man was created free to choose. In speaking of the rebellious angels, the Father emphasizes that they too were free to choose, for agency is an eternal principle
--(Christ in the council of Heaven) The Father calls the angelic host together and asks for a volunteer to save man. Even here, the principle of free agency is at work. The Father asks someone to offer himself. The heavenly host are mute. No intercessor appears. Then the Son, acting freely and willingly, without coercion, steps forward.
--(Godhead) One of the most exciting things about Paradise Lost is what Milton seems to be saying about the Godhead. It is quite clear that he treats the Father and the Son as separate beings.
--the Son is designated by the Father to perform the creation


These are doctrines we tend to think originated with Joseph Smith and don't appear in the Bible or other Christian churches.

I don't agree with you that 'we' think these ideas all originated with Joseph Smith. To the contrary, all of these ideas are kicked around in one way or another by many pre-milton thinkers. Many of these ideas are based in scritpural statements (or inferences from scirptural statments). Doesn't the very fact that the New Era points out these similarities suggest there is no basis to conclude Milton made this stuff up nad it was then grabbed by Joseph Smith?

[jay santos]

Many of these ideas are based in scritpural statements (or inferences from scirptural statments).

I'm unaware of any of these doctrines being in the Bible. That's the whole point of my questions.

I should amend that. I made a bullet point list of a lot of items. Of those, I'd say I know of no Bible references and were unaware any other Christians shared the ideas except for 1) the ex nihilo creation issue is embedded in the Hebrew of Gen 1:1 2) free agency obviously is a doctrine that's argued about by Christians 3) separation of Godhead is obviously arguable through Bible.

[creekster]

I'm unaware of any of these doctrines being in the Bible. That's the whole point of my questions.

I should amend that. I made a bullet point list of a lot of items. Of those, I'd say I know of no Bible references and were unaware any other Christians shared the ideas except for 1) the ex nihilo creation issue is embedded in the Hebrew of Gen 1:1 2) free agency obviously is a doctrine that's argued about by Christians 3) separation of Godhead is obviously arguable through Bible.

I can try to go back later and pull more refences out for you, but the war in heaven is discussed in Revealtions and I think referred to in Isaiah (or maybe elswhere), including the 1/3 of stars swept from heaven or some such. As SU points out, the prevailing notion is that this is meant to refer to an end fo days battle, but Milton casts it as a pre-earth battle.

There are more.

[SeattleUte]

From the New Era article:

Milton themes that correlate to LDS doctrine:
--Milton seems to have felt, like us, that ambition, Satan’s desire for high position and personal glory, was his chief failing.
--The rebellion of Satan and his angels, of course, led to the war in heaven and their expulsion from the Father’s presence. Milton even specifies (IV. 156) that “A third part of the Gods” were ejected with Lucifer.
--It is interesting, though, that Milton seems to have rejected the widely-held 17th century doctrine that God created the earth from nothing. He sees instead the creation as a process of organizing already existent matter:
--Milton even seems to have foreseen the eventual celestialization of the earth,
--(free agency) The belief widely held in Milton’s day, that every man is predestined to either heaven or hell is incompatible with the principle of free agency. Milton repeatedly insists that man was created free to choose. In speaking of the rebellious angels, the Father emphasizes that they too were free to choose, for agency is an eternal principle
--(Christ in the council of Heaven) The Father calls the angelic host together and asks for a volunteer to save man. Even here, the principle of free agency is at work. The Father asks someone to offer himself. The heavenly host are mute. No intercessor appears. Then the Son, acting freely and willingly, without coercion, steps forward.
--(Godhead) One of the most exciting things about Paradise Lost is what Milton seems to be saying about the Godhead. It is quite clear that he treats the Father and the Son as separate beings.
--the Son is designated by the Father to perform the creation


These are doctrines we tend to think originated with Joseph Smith and don't appear in the Bible or other Christian churches.

SMACKDOWN! Creekster: Ouch!!

[jay santos]

I can try to go back later and pull more refences out for you, but the war in heaven is discussed in Revealtions and I think referred to in Isaiah (or maybe elswhere), including the 1/3 of stars swept from heaven or some such. As SU points out, the prevailing notion is that this is meant to refer to an end fo days battle, but Milton casts it as a pre-earth battle.

There are more.

Thanks. The 1/3 stars swept from heaven is the first time I've heard (or taken note). I looked it up Revelations 12:4. I've known the Revelations 12:7 scripture and that's the only reference I'd known of that references any of this.

[LA Ute]

From the New Era article:

Milton themes that correlate to LDS doctrine:
--Milton seems to have felt, like us, that ambition, Satan’s desire for high position and personal glory, was his chief failing.
--The rebellion of Satan and his angels, of course, led to the war in heaven and their expulsion from the Father’s presence. Milton even specifies (IV. 156) that “A third part of the Gods” were ejected with Lucifer.
--It is interesting, though, that Milton seems to have rejected the widely-held 17th century doctrine that God created the earth from nothing. He sees instead the creation as a process of organizing already existent matter:
--Milton even seems to have foreseen the eventual celestialization of the earth,
--(free agency) The belief widely held in Milton’s day, that every man is predestined to either heaven or hell is incompatible with the principle of free agency. Milton repeatedly insists that man was created free to choose. In speaking of the rebellious angels, the Father emphasizes that they too were free to choose, for agency is an eternal principle
--(Christ in the council of Heaven) The Father calls the angelic host together and asks for a volunteer to save man. Even here, the principle of free agency is at work. The Father asks someone to offer himself. The heavenly host are mute. No intercessor appears. Then the Son, acting freely and willingly, without coercion, steps forward.
--(Godhead) One of the most exciting things about Paradise Lost is what Milton seems to be saying about the Godhead. It is quite clear that he treats the Father and the Son as separate beings.
--the Son is designated by the Father to perform the creation


These are doctrines we tend to think originated with Joseph Smith and don't appear in the Bible or other Christian churches.

I am on the run but FWIW, BYU English professors love to theorize about the significance of literary archetypes and how they seem similar to Gospel themes. It's been a long time, but a (non-LDS) scholar named Northrop Frye (I think) wrote a book called "The Anatomy of Criticism" that deals with the notion of literary archetypes. I think Frye or other scholars tied archetypes to Jung's theory of a collective unconscious - e.g., all of mankind thinks about a fall from grace and redemption, so those themes show up in the legends and literature of all human societies. It's actually very interesting stuff.

Some LDS scholars have said that those cross-cultural themes reflect the influence of the Light of Christ or the Holy GHost, and mankind's pre-mortal origins, etc. Some further theorize that the reason there is a collective unconscious is that we all lived premortally and bring some shred of memory with ut. My guess is that the author of the New Era article was drawing on that line of thinking.

So it is entirely consistent with those theories to see Milton's work in "Paradise Lost" as the influence of light Milton received from God (just as we see Columbus, the Framers, and others so influenced). Mormons would not see Joseph Smith borrowing anything from Milton, but simply receiving the fulness of truths of which Milton only got glimpses. We don't see Joseph Smith as borrowing much from anyone, but as being the repository of restored truth.

I'm just supplying info, SU. I am not endorsing these theories. No need to find a way to attack this as just more Mormon claptrap and/or idiocy.

[SloanHater]

This is pretty bad. Milton did much more than what you say. The Bible has little of Milton's cosmos in it, including how the war in heaven unfolded, and his Satan, including Satan's charsimatic and engaging personality and biography, is entirely his invention.

Santos' point is that the details of Paradise Lost and the LDS war in heaven scenario appear to originate with Milton and there are too many parallels absent third source to dismiss as coincidence.

This is a very interesting subject that is not getting the drill down here that it deserves. Where are our apologist theologeons like Pelagius? Typical.

Perhaps you should read (or re-read) the Book of Enoch and then tell me Milton's ideas are original.