John Milton, Joseph Smith and LOST

[SeattleUte]

I see. You just post things you don't mean.

Those two posts are not inconsistent. Milton did not simply "romanticize" Bible stories. Once again, like when you disparaged rape victims, you've dug yourself a terrible hole. Give up!

This book at pages 166-67 discusses possible inspiration drawn by Milton from the BOok of Enoch, and how that connection is often exaggerated.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uvh...0Enoch&f=false

How funny that you all think it's so meaningful whether the details of the war in heaven scenario came from Milton or an apocryphal work of scripture.

[SeattleUte]

So you suggest you are making a big point in your earlier posts but then retreat to this rather small point. Who can argue with what you have just said? Of course, by the same token, we certainly didnt need any 'apologist theologian' to analyze the issue in order to reach THAT conclusion.

Given your current position, the only real issue is whether JS simply relied on a literary tradiion (or more likely oral permuation of a literary tradition) that was available to him or if he was inspired/directed to enucleate the eternal truths from those prior tradtions. In my mind, he probabyl did both of these from time to time. GIven the conclusion you have just set forth, however, this distinction would be meaningless to you and you are left now with no dog in this fight.

As I stated before, you overstated my original case. Maybe this is what 3D means by the SeattleUte effect.

[jay santos]

How funny that you all think it's so meaningful whether the details of the war in heaven scenario came from Milton or an apocryphal work of scripture.

It's meaningful to me. Here's why.

If the idea never existed in recorded human thought before Milton, and Milton nails 10 bullseyes of true original doctrine, and Joseph receives the same 10 doctrines independently, it's very hard to reconcile Milton.

If the ideas have been around for millenia and have been thrown out by different inspired men and/or "prophets" and Milton was just regurgitating them, which later was verified by Joseph receiving revelation from God, then it's fairly easy to explain Milton.

To another person like you who doesn't believe in a God who gives revelation to humans, then all these ideas are collective whimsical human ideas that started with humans and get passed around.

A believer wants to trace an idea from human to human back to a prophet and then to God.

[SeattleUte]

It's meaningful to me. Here's why.

If the idea never existed in recorded human thought before Milton, and Milton nails 10 bullseyes of true original doctrine, and Joseph receives the same 10 doctrines independently, it's very hard to reconcile Milton.

If the ideas have been around for millenia and have been thrown out by different inspired men and/or "prophets" and Milton was just regurgitating them, which later was verified by Joseph receiving revelation from God, then it's fairly easy to explain Milton.

To another person like you who doesn't believe in a God who gives revelation to humans, then all these ideas are collective whimsical human ideas that started with humans and get passed around.

A believer wants to trace an idea from human to human back to a prophet and then to God.

You may be oversimplifying my belief.

In any event, here's the irony: Milton's reliance on ancient Hebrew tradition and mythology in forging his very original rendition of the pre-existence cosmos, the Hebrew cosmology alluded to throughout, ENHANCES not detracts from his genius. Likewise, I only gain respect for JS if he got ideas or inspiration from Milton. All the relevant ancient Hebrew stuff had merged with Milton in the English and early American mind by the time of JS in any event.

[SloanHater]

Those two posts are not inconsistent. Milton did not simply "romanticize" Bible stories. Once again, like when you disparaged rape victims, you've dug yourself a terrible hole. Give up!

This book at pages 166-67 discusses possible inspiration drawn by Milton from the BOok of Enoch, and how that connection is often exaggerated.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uvh...0Enoch&f=false

How funny that you all think it's so meaningful whether the details of the war in heaven scenario came from Milton or an apocryphal work of scripture.

I give you credit, you never admit defeat.

It's important because you leveled a criticism of my opinion while claiming that Milton's ideas were original and JS Jr. had simply copied them. When confronted with proof otherwise, you change the subject.

From your same search:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ec_...0Enoch&f=false

[LA Ute]

So you suggest you are making a big point in your earlier posts but then retreat to this rather small point. Who can argue with what you have just said? Of course, by the same token, we certainly didnt need any 'apologist theologian' to analyze the issue in order to reach THAT conclusion.

Given your current position, the only real issue is whether JS simply relied on a literary tradiion (or more likely oral permuation of a literary tradition) that was available to him or if he was inspired/directed to enucleate the eternal truths from those prior tradtions. In my mind, he probabyl did both of these from time to time. GIven the conclusion you have just set forth, however, this distinction would be meaningless to you and you are left now with no dog in this fight.

My advice to SU is to recognize the better part of valor and slither out of Dodge, at least on this issue.

[SeattleUte]

Let me ask you all this. What is the difference between the process that many here have ackowledged must have been Joseph Smith's in generating the Book of Abraham, and Milton's in creating Paradise Lost? Or, what is the difference between Milton/Paradise Lost and this?:

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...2&postcount=15

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...7&postcount=24

You may choose Joseph Smith as your prophet but Milton is mine. Your disparagement of Milton as a worthy source for some of Joseph Smith's theology offends me. Milton is my prophet, because his poetry is better than Joseph Smith's. I don't know what better basis on which to choose.

[Surfah]

Let me ask you all this. What is the difference between the process that many here have ackowledged must have been Joseph Smith's in generating the Book of Abraham, and Milton's in creating Paradise Lost? Or, what is the difference between Milton/Paradise Lost and this?:

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...2&postcount=15

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...7&postcount=24

You may choose Joseph Smith as your prophet but Milton is mine. Your disparagement of Milton as a worthy source for some of Joseph Smith's theology offends me. Milton is my prophet, because his poetry is better than Joseph Smith's. I don't know what better basis on which to choose.

Freedom is your God.
Milton is your Prophet.
Yoga is your Religion.
Lincoln Memorial is your Temple.

[SeattleUte]

Freedom is your God.
Milton is your Prophet.
Yoga is your Religion.
Lincoln Memorial is your Temple.

Excellent summary except kindness is more my religion. Yoga is like MIA.

[Surfah]

Excellent summary except kindness is more my religion. Yoga is like MIA.

That and kindness.

http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=81

He's been my yoga master about eight years. Ask him. Kirk Slobody. These people are the best. They're my religion! Them and kindness, that is.

Also, you've been gone a long time. MIA?

[SeattleUte]

Also, you've been gone a long time. MIA?

Sorry. All that modern revelation is hard to keep up with. I'll add MIA to my discard list including the priesthood ban, Christ Satan's brother, Book of Abraham facsimiles, polygamy, neutrals in the pre-existence war, etc.

[LA Ute]

Sorry. All that modern revelation is hard to keep up with. I'll add MIA to my discard list including the priesthood ban, Christ Satan's brother, Book of Abraham facsimiles, polygamy, neutrals in the pre-existence war, etc.

Now you're flailing. This is not the graceful, dignified exit I had hoped for you.