Why can't a bishop have 4 or 5 counselors?

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Or an Elder's Quorum president or Relief Society president?

Here's the reason I ask:

My brother-in-law is a counselor in his bishopric. He is also in oral surgery residency in the army, and he and his wife have 2 kids, 5 and 2, with another due in April. His wife was crying to my wife the other day about how little he's home with his work and school responsibilities, essentially leaving her to care for the kids by herself, day and night. It was overwhelming, and they just called her to be a laurel advisor, as well.

We recently had a bishopric change, and a young father was put in as a counselor. They have four or five young children, including a 7-month-old. He was released about 8 months ago as Elder's Quorum President and has been Executive Secretary since then. It happened really quickly, and rather than being happy and excited at the new opportunity, his wife was crying because she realized she was going to see him far less over the next few years, and she was going to be on her own with all those little kids.

Why do we do that to people? Yes, I understand that whole thing about Joseph Smith in Liberty jail and how adversity makes us stronger, but holy crap, why do we do that to ourselves? If being in a bishopric is such an overwhelming responsibility, why not put a couple more guys in there to share the load, and let the bishopric's kids have a father?

I mean, we're all about having our home be our greatest responsibility, and we preach about how children need a father and a mother in the home, and then take some of the most capable men and make them do church work every weeknight evening and all day Sunday, so that their kids hardly see them, and turn their wives into single moms.

It's a contradictory message, and I don't know why the church does that to people. I know it's not as big of an issue when you've got older men in the bishopric, but when you start taking young fathers with young children out of the home, aren't you fostering the same problems that we claim exist when there's only one parent in the home?

Wards need to be about half the size that most are. They should combine scouts, young men and young women with another ward(s) (strength in numbers), most other things would be fine with half the size.

[fusnik]

This brings to mind another thought....when I was a young lad, my faja had a calling of significance and I remember countless times people coming up to me saying 'how great he was' 'man of God' etc, and the only thoughts I had were, 'this asshole of a dad knows strangers better than me.' I wonder how many families feel this way, wish the church protected the families better.

[Indy Coug]

Wards need to be about half the size that most are. They should combine scouts, young men and young women with another ward(s) (strength in numbers), most other things would be fine with half the size.

I tend to agree. The issue with that is meeting space.

[Jacob]

In the Church, we call people to distribute hymn books, we call someone to shake hands in as people enter the chapel, we even assign people in the ward to drive by the Church at night and make sure the door is locked!

I hate that guy. Especially in my neighborhood--newer community, almost all mormons.

But I especially hate him because he kicks us out of the gym at 10:30. We are the Melchizedek Priesthood, the very leaders of the church, we don't need a 10:30 curfew, or a hall monitor to enforce it. Though this policy is not really his fault.

[Indy Coug]

I hate that guy. Especially in my neighborhood--newer community, almost all mormons.

But I especially hate him because he kicks us out of the gym at 10:30. We are the Melchizedek Priesthood, the very leaders of the church, we don't need a 10:30 curfew, or a hall monitor to enforce it. Though this policy is not really his fault.

This is why you should aspire to certain callings -- so you can have your own keys and bust in whenever you want.

[TripletDaddy]

I found that one of my main roles as a counselor was to make our meetings more efficient and be a sounding board for what was necessary and what wasn't and what could be outsourced. Before too long, our hours were reduced significantly.

Ideally, we should use your model and scale it out to all wards and branches.

We have way too many unnecessary and overly-long meetings, but it isn't the Church that is requiring those meetings. They are simply a result of inefficient management. Why the heck are we meeting on Sunday night to discuss 20 minutes worth of stuff we could have discussed at Church and in an email? The answer is usually because people assume we are "supposed" to have these meetings.

Wrong. I like your notion of figuring out how to improve throughput because it recognizes from the outset that we are operating inefficiently.

[Soccermom]

My own personal thought is that much if this Church/Life balance angst is a result of our own ineptitude.

Since there are no managerial pre-requisites to leadership positions in the Church, we are often subjected to well-meaning men and women that are really not very good at managing groups of people, tasks, etc. This is evident through various little things....an inability to start or end a meeting on time, an inability or unwillingness to make a decision and move on, a reluctance or inability to delegate, lack of procedural knowledge, etc.

This is not a fault, simply a reality. Some people that cannot teach are called to teach...and some people that cannot lead are called to lead.

I don't know how such a problem gets resolved, though. I have never encountered a group that seems to enjoy superfluous meetings as much as Mormons. It reminds me of what it would be like to work for the government...there is a nonsense committee for every trivial thing. In the Church, we call people to distribute hymn books, we call someone to shake hands in as people enter the chapel, we even assign people in the ward to drive by the Church at night and make sure the door is locked! No stone is left unturned in an effort to allow people to serve.

Much of what we do can be streamlined, but we are such adherents to culture that I am not sure we can expect a radical shift anytime soon. It seems more likely that we will continue to go to PECs that drag on for an extra 20 minutes and endless Sunday meetings to discuss things that could be resolved with one or two emails.

I agree with everything you said, especially the parts about people not knowing how to make a decision and move on and Mormons rivaling the government in frequency and duration of unnecessary meetings.

Call me selfish, but I really hope Aristides never gets asked to do one of those very time consuming callings. YM takes him away enough as it is, especially now that he is employed again.

[jay santos]

My own personal thought is that much if this Church/Life balance angst is a result of our own ineptitude.

Since there are no managerial pre-requisites to leadership positions in the Church, we are often subjected to well-meaning men and women that are really not very good at managing groups of people, tasks, etc. This is evident through various little things....an inability to start or end a meeting on time, an inability or unwillingness to make a decision and move on, a reluctance or inability to delegate, lack of procedural knowledge, etc.

This is not a fault, simply a reality. Some people that cannot teach are called to teach...and some people that cannot lead are called to lead.

I don't know how such a problem gets resolved, though. I have never encountered a group that seems to enjoy superfluous meetings as much as Mormons. It reminds me of what it would be like to work for the government...there is a nonsense committee for every trivial thing. In the Church, we call people to distribute hymn books, we call someone to shake hands in as people enter the chapel, we even assign people in the ward to drive by the Church at night and make sure the door is locked! No stone is left unturned in an effort to allow people to serve.

Much of what we do can be streamlined, but we are such adherents to culture that I am not sure we can expect a radical shift anytime soon. It seems more likely that we will continue to go to PECs that drag on for an extra 20 minutes and endless Sunday meetings to discuss things that could be resolved with one or two emails.

I think it's more systemic than that. If you're a counselor in a bishopric, you're subject to a bishop's bad management. If you're a bishop, you're subject to a stake prez's bad management. etc. So if I'm a good manager and accept a calling of responsiblity, I can make it easy for my counselors but I'm probably stuck doing a lot of dumb crap my higher up's want me to do.

edit: I skimmed your post DDD and assumed you were talking about a single person's ineptitude causing himself grief in his calling. But I see you're calling it a systemic issue also.

[Indy Coug]

Ideally, we should use your model and scale it out to all wards and branches.

We have way too many unnecessary and overly-long meetings, but it isn't the Church that is requiring those meetings. They are simply a result of inefficient management. Why the heck are we meeting on Sunday night to discuss 20 minutes worth of stuff we could have discussed at Church and in an email? The answer is usually because people assume we are "supposed" to have these meetings.

Wrong. I like your notion of figuring out how to improve throughput because it recognizes from the outset that we are operating inefficiently.

Example: Open a MSN Messenger chat room and have a quick "heads together" on a couple of points and spare each other the 30 to 40 minute round trip drive to the church.

[Jacob]

This is why you should aspire to certain callings -- so you can have your own keys and bust in whenever you want.

What then? The guy called to enforce the local building's 10:30 curfew comes along and we leave, then all meet back 10 minutes later to start playing again? I don't think so. The problem isn't that we don't have keys. Its twofold:

1) Some well-intentioned fool thinks so lowly of the church's elect that he instituted a 10:30 curfew
2) Some guy actually comes around to enforce it.

[SoCalCoug]

I tend to agree. The issue with that is meeting space.

Cut church to 2 hours, and you can fit more wards into the same building.

[Indy Coug]

Cut church to 2 hours, and you can fit more wards into the same building.

I also agree.

[SoCalCoug]

Example: Open a MSN Messenger chat room and have a quick "heads together" on a couple of points and spare each other the 30 to 40 minute round trip drive to the church.

You expect a bunch of men who can't figure out how to stop the microphone from making that screeching sound to be able to operate MSN Messenger?

[Indy Coug]

You expect a bunch of men who can't figure out how to stop the microphone from making that screeching sound to be able to operate MSN Messenger?

That's why they are making a push to call 20-somethings to the bishopric.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Scouts has a whole bureaucracy around it that people that haven't dealt with it wouldn't believe. I was in the stake young men's presidency and the adult leadership scout meetings would drive me bonkers. There are meetings at the ward level, stake level, regional level (beneath the counsel level), and then the counsel level, it was awful. I sat in on a few 2 hour meetings mostly discussing how to get 16 year old boys interested in scouts again. The other meetings all seemed to be about the bureaucracy itself, e.g. who to go to for advancement or for more support in getting 16 year olds away from girls and video games so they could play steal the bacon at the weekly scout meeting.