Why can't a bishop have 4 or 5 counselors?

[Indy Coug]

Jacob that's great in theory but in reality it doesn't happen that way. If you are called to a Bishopric, EQP, Stake level calling typically you get called in, short worthiness interview, followed by interview with spouse, followed by interview with both you and spouse with calling being extended. (In my stake growing up they did it this way, my stake now they do the same way). How is someone suppose to pray about the calling when it gets thrust on them like this? You going to tell the SP who is saying, this calling is from the Lord, 'give me a couple days to see how this will impact my family.' You and 99% of people will say yes and go forward in faith. I think with all callings the calling extended, and a week later the candidate says yes or no. Gives everbody involved due process.

My wife did exactly that a couple of months ago. She fasted, prayed, got confirmation and then accepted.

[Rosebud]

Frankly, most wards don't have a sufficient surplus of priesthood to pull that off.

I can think of a really quick way to rectify this problem.

[Indy Coug]

I can think of a really quick way to rectify this problem.

Yeah, disband the church.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Yeah, disband the church.

[Rosebud]

Yeah, disband the church.

Why go to extremes? The solution is much more simple than that.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I can think of a really quick way to rectify this problem.

Gay marriage?

[Indy Coug]

Why go to extremes? The solution is much more simple than that.

Disbanding the church would be the simplest solution. Get out the ward calling tree and call everyone and tell them to never show up to church again.

[Jacob]

Jacob that's great in theory but in reality it doesn't happen that way. If you are called to a Bishopric, EQP, Stake level calling typically you get called in, short worthiness interview, followed by interview with spouse, followed by interview with both you and spouse with calling being extended. (In my stake growing up they did it this way, my stake now they do the same way). How is someone suppose to pray about the calling when it gets thrust on them like this? You going to tell the SP who is saying, this calling is from the Lord, 'give me a couple days to see how this will impact my family.' You and 99% of people will say yes and go forward in faith. I think with all callings the calling extended, and a week later the candidate says yes or no. Gives everbody involved due process.

You misjudge me. I have been thinking about this recently, and would not accept such a calling on the spot. But you do point out a real problem.

However, my point was more about the person already serving in the calling. The person who has given his honest effort and finds that it is harming his family. I propose that he make his decision, pray for confirmation, then go to the bishop to submit his resignation armed with the unofficial release from the Lord via answer to personal prayer.

[All-American]

Is the solution to call another counselor or to rely more heavily on other ward members, such as the clerk, EQP, RSP, Primary Presidency, etc.? Or, conversely, to rely more heavily on high councilmen? I'm just not sure what delegable duties are exclusive to the bishopric that aren't exclusive to the bishop.

[fusnik]

Jacob my apologies. Indy, I bet that what your wife did happens as often as Jesus himself extends callings to people. Maybe 4 times a year give or take.

[TripletDaddy]

My own personal thought is that much if this Church/Life balance angst is a result of our own ineptitude.

Since there are no managerial pre-requisites to leadership positions in the Church, we are often subjected to well-meaning men and women that are really not very good at managing groups of people, tasks, etc. This is evident through various little things....an inability to start or end a meeting on time, an inability or unwillingness to make a decision and move on, a reluctance or inability to delegate, lack of procedural knowledge, etc.

This is not a fault, simply a reality. Some people that cannot teach are called to teach...and some people that cannot lead are called to lead.

I don't know how such a problem gets resolved, though. I have never encountered a group that seems to enjoy superfluous meetings as much as Mormons. It reminds me of what it would be like to work for the government...there is a nonsense committee for every trivial thing. In the Church, we call people to distribute hymn books, we call someone to shake hands in as people enter the chapel, we even assign people in the ward to drive by the Church at night and make sure the door is locked! No stone is left unturned in an effort to allow people to serve.

Much of what we do can be streamlined, but we are such adherents to culture that I am not sure we can expect a radical shift anytime soon. It seems more likely that we will continue to go to PECs that drag on for an extra 20 minutes and endless Sunday meetings to discuss things that could be resolved with one or two emails.

[Rosebud]

Gay marriage?

[Indy Coug]

Jacob my apologies. Indy, I bet that what your wife did happens as often as Jesus himself extends callings to people. Maybe 4 times a year give or take.

What happens many, many times is that people flat out refuse the calling. It is true that the vast majority of people that accept callings do so on the spot.

I also think that most people have decided ahead of time that in general they will accept to do whatever they are asked to do and/or are taking an active inventory of where they are in life and what they are capable of handling, so there isn't a lot of spiritual/intellectual/logistical wrangling to do when the call comes.

I also think that some people are naive and don't know how much certain callings will require.

[LA Ute]

In our ward three of the last four bishops has grown children, and two of them were retired but still very able-bodied. That actually worked pretty well.

There really are only a few things that only the bishop can do - mainly counseling. Some bishops I have worked with concentrate on that (in some wards there is a lot of it to do) and delegate everything else. The retired guys have tended to see the bishop calling as pretty much their job, and they spend all their time on it. (Works out great for the counselors.) But in a ward where a bishop can get strong counselors, the job should not burn him out. (Easy for me to say, I've never been bishop.) I personally don't like to see men with large young families called, but sometimes SPs feel strongly that those are the guys to call.

[Indy Coug]

My own personal thought is that much if this Church/Life balance angst is a result of our own ineptitude.

Since there are no managerial pre-requisites to leadership positions in the Church, we are often subjected to well-meaning men and women that are really not very good at managing groups of people, tasks, etc. This is evident through various little things....an inability to start or end a meeting on time, an inability or unwillingness to make a decision and move on, a reluctance or inability to delegate, lack of procedural knowledge, etc.

This is not a fault, simply a reality. Some people that cannot teach are called to teach...and some people that cannot lead are called to lead.

I don't know how such a problem gets resolved, though. I have never encountered a group that seems to enjoy superfluous meetings as much as Mormons. It reminds me of what it would be like to work for the government...there is a nonsense committee for every trivial thing. In the Church, we call people to distribute hymn books, we call someone to shake hands in as people enter the chapel, we even assign people in the ward to drive by the Church at night and make sure the door is locked! No stone is left unturned in an effort to allow people to serve.

Much of what we do can be streamlined, but we are such adherents to culture that I am not sure we can expect a radical shift anytime soon. It seems more likely that we will continue to go to PECs that drag on for an extra 20 minutes and endless Sunday meetings to discuss things that could be resolved with one or two emails.

I found that one of my main roles as a counselor was to make our meetings more efficient and be a sounding board for what was necessary and what wasn't and what could be outsourced. Before too long, our hours were reduced significantly.