"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - The Rivalry Thread

[Jeff Lebowski]

BYU has stated policies that treat LGBTQ people differently than heterosexual people. A married gay student is violating the honor code. A gay student that is in a romantic relationship is violating the honor code. The same is not true on either of these for heterosexual students. How exactly is that not discrimination? I didn't say it should have an impact, I said it will have an impact.

Oh, I understand your logic. I reject it. So do the courts.

How was it "woke thinking" that led to Larry Scott not partnering on the Pac-12 network?
How was it "woke thinking" that led to turning down a $30 million dollar offer from ESPN and countering with $50 million.

Because those are the types of things that killed the Pac-12, not choosing to not invite BYU because they believe that BYU's discrimination is morally wrong.

Woke thinking = rejecting BYU as a member of the P12 when it clearly would have helped stabilize the conference over dumb reasons like your discrimination claim. And rejecting a merger with other B12 schools after Texas/OU left because they didn't want to associate with truck stop/middle america. OK, that last one was just pure arrogance.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Oh, I understand your logic. I reject it. So do the courts.



Woke thinking = rejecting BYU as a member of the P12 when it clearly would have helped stabilize the conference over dumb reasons like your discrimination claim. And rejecting a merger with other B12 schools after Texas/OU left because they didn't want to associate with truck stop/middle america. OK, that last one was just pure arrogance.

What do you mean the courts "reject it."

BYU is allowed to discriminate against gay people because it is based on religious beliefs and there hasn't been a level of scrutiny applied yet to these type of discrimination. The fact that is a religious belief doesn't change it from being discrimination. You can go ahead and justify it and say it is right all you want. Still it is discrimination.

"Rejecting BYU" wouldn't even make the top 10 mistakes that led to the Pac-12's death.

[USUC]

"Rejecting BYU" wouldn't even make the top 10 mistakes that led to the Pac-12's death.

Perhaps. But it is clearly a symptom of the mindset that led to its downfall.

[Applejack]

You're kidding right? You can say excluding BYU was a principled stand and that's fine. But to say it wasn't significant contributor to the conditions that led to extinction is crazy. If the PAC 12 would have invited BYU at any time before Oklahoma and Texas left the Big 12, the Big 12 would have folded and the PAC would have absorbed their pick of the remnants. But because they didn't invite the opposite happened.

You;re kidding right? You think if the PAC had added BYU the PAC would have been fine? The stable genius, Larry Scott, wanted to raid the BIGXII (I've heard TCU and maybe Kansas) but USC said no; while already looking sideways.

How exactly would BYU in the PAC have destabalized the BIG XII? How would it have kept USC/UCLA in the fold?

[Omaha 680]

What do you mean the courts "reject it."

BYU is allowed to discriminate against gay people because it is based on religious beliefs and there hasn't been a level of scrutiny applied yet to these type of discrimination. The fact that is a religious belief doesn't change it from being discrimination. You can go ahead and justify it and say it is right all you want. Still it is discrimination.

"Rejecting BYU" wouldn't even make the top 10 mistakes that led to the Pac-12's death.

Ok let's hear the top 10 then. You have obviously thought a lot about this do naming them should be easy.

[Omaha 680]

You;re kidding right? You think if the PAC had added BYU the PAC would have been fine? The stable genius, Larry Scott, wanted to raid the BIGXII (I've heard TCU and maybe Kansas) but USC said no; while already looking sideways.

How exactly would BYU in the PAC have destabalized the BIG XII? How would it have kept USC/UCLA in the fold?

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said they would be fine. I said they wouldn't have collapsed. I also didn't day inviting the byu would have destabilized the big 12 in that moment. What it would have done is leave the Big 12 without any viable options to stabilize once their two anchor programs left. Then they probably would have done something g ridiculous like spend over a year trying to negotiate a new tv deal all the while claiming they have great options. I know something like that seems pretty far fetched right?

[Applejack]

Ok let's hear the top 10 then. You have obviously thought a lot about this do naming them should be easy.

I'll start:

1. Not closing the ESPN deal for $35 mill per team
2, Not closing any deal before the BIG XII (despite our contract being up first)
3. Larry Scott
4. The PAc 12 network
5. "the alliance"
6. not killing the big Xii when they had a chance (thanks, Trojans!)
7. playing 9 conference games instead of 8
8. Larry Scott media consultant (to the tune of 5-6 million annually)
9. Larry Scott's uber expensive pac 12 network offices
10. Larry Scott

[Joe Public]

USC, with reigning Heisman winner Caleb Williams, is the only top 10 team playing this weekend. That game probably has lots of potential national interest, especially in its evening time slot. Does anyone know on what channel I can find the game? Plenty of casual viewers flipping through ESPN or Fox would stop and watch a game like that.

[Omaha 680]

I'll start:

1. Not closing the ESPN deal for $35 mill per team
2, Not closing any deal before the BIG XII (despite our contract being up first)
3. Larry Scott
4. The PAc 12 network
5. "the alliance"
6. not killing the big Xii when they had a chance (thanks, Trojans!)
7. playing 9 conference games instead of 8
8. Larry Scott media consultant (to the tune of 5-6 million annually)
9. Larry Scott's uber expensive pac 12 network offices
10. Larry Scott

Ha. Good list. I remember PAC 12 fans and Ute fans being so enamored of Larry Scott in the early days of the network after the expansion to 12. Were you one of them or did you see through him?

[Jeff Lebowski]

What do you mean the courts "reject it."

BYU is allowed to discriminate against gay people because it is based on religious beliefs and there hasn't been a level of scrutiny applied yet to these type of discrimination. The fact that is a religious belief doesn't change it from being discrimination. You can go ahead and justify it and say it is right all you want. Still it is discrimination.

"Rejecting BYU" wouldn't even make the top 10 mistakes that led to the Pac-12's death.

The Pac 12 engaged in religious discrimination when it rejected BYU as a candidate for expansion due to their religious foundation.

See how easy this is?

“When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

[SteelBlue]

I don't think BYU advances. BYU's best chance to move on when it becomes the P2 is to stop the institutions discrimination against LGBTQ people. I don't see that happening. BYU was held back from the P5, while being financially viable, for more than a decade because of their discrimination. They got in because the Big-12 was desperate at the time. If there wasn't that level of desperation, they wouldn't have been willing to take on BYU's baggage. I don't see BYU offering enough financial advantages to either the B1G or the SEC to accept them.

By the way, I don't expect Utah to advance either.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written but America is in a weird place right now. Wouldn’t surprise me if christo-fascists are throwing gays off of rooftops 5 years from now. I’ve given up trying to understand this country.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The P12 poster on the back wall has to go.

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[Jeff Lebowski]

Let's critique your list.

I'll start:

1. Not closing the ESPN deal for $35 mill per team - due to arrogance by P12 presidents
2, Not closing any deal before the BIG XII (despite our contract being up first)- you are cheating, this is the same as #1
3. Larry Scott - this guy was bad, but he is being used as a scapegoat, he didn't kill the P12
4. The PAc 12 network- yeah terrible idea, bad management
5. "the alliance"- this didn't kill the P12
6. not killing the big Xii when they had a chance (thanks, Trojans!)- due to arrogance by P12 presidents and leadership
7. playing 9 conference games instead of 8 - come on, this didn't kill the P12
8. Larry Scott media consultant (to the tune of 5-6 million annually) - ditto
9. Larry Scott's uber expensive pac 12 network offices- ditto
10. Larry Scott- ditto

So you really have 3, maybe 4 legit items on your list.

And by the way, nobody claimed that adding BYU would have single-handedly saved the P12. But it was one in a series of bad management decisions made by arrogant and out-of-tough university presidents that eventually doomed the league. Even P12 apologist Stuart Mandel concedes not inviting BYU was a mistake in hindsight.

Don't get me wrong - I am very happy how things have worked out for BYU.

[MartyFunkhouser]

The P12 poster on the back wall has to go.

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I'd say this about anyone who did something like that for any team. The whole damn thing needs to go. What a waste.

[falafel]

I'd say this about anyone who did something like that for any team. The whole damn thing needs to go. What a waste.

The fact that they call the people who come behold this monstrosity the "second family" says all you need to know about these people.