Andy Reid for BYU head coach groundswell...

[Indy Coug]

He didn't say, but he is on the board of directors of AAA. Interesting guy. I asked him if he knew you and he did not.

I know one of them. I'm trying to figure out how a guy can both be on the board of the AAA and also be interesting.

[shoganai]

Independence was always a bad idea. I was against it and said we would have a schedule that looked like Navy's in Oct and Nov. We have. I also thought the MWC with BSU replacing Utah was a still solid conference. But that ship has sailed. There is no turning back. BSU is already on the schedule long term. So what would BYU get in returning? A crappy commissioner with a less than stellar TV agreement, and still playing crappy teams in most Octobers and Novembers. Going back now only makes the problem worse.

Edit. Meant for this to be a reply to RC.

BYU could not stay in the MWC any longer. It was a total train wreck. It had been slowly deteriorating into a mess since at least 2004. The only thing that made it tolerable was having a partner in Utah to help fight all of the political garbage.

Most of the discontent was kept out of the public, but there were all kinds of shenanigans going on behind the scenes from what I've been told. It got so bad at one point that BYU actually had a fully developed plan to go independent as early as 2007. The reason they were able to arrange it so fast in 2010, was because they'd already basically done the grunt work (including cutting a deal with Karl Benson and the WAC) three years earlier.

BYU has, in typical fashion, gone so overboard with their "exposure" mantra, that it's become a punch line, but the truth is the lack of it was really hurting the three teams that mattered in that conference. Nobody at Utah or TCU would say otherwise if anybody ever bothered to ask them.

And the money... they made it work, but the financial situation was, in some ways, even worse than the exposure. BYU is making more money right now on BYUtv alone - showing one lousy football game, and its less-interesting basketball games - than the MWC ever paid out for its TV rights in entirety. And, in case you missed it, the MWC payout has decreased even further since The mtn. went belly-up. Oh yeah, and they are probably stuck with that deal until 2019.

Oh, and that ESPN deal with the WCC? Yeah, they don't release the numbers but I've seen them. The WCC payout on its own is also worth more than the MWC's TV deal for all sports ever was.

Leaving the MWC was not a mistake.

[Mormon Red Death]

BYU could not stay in the MWC any longer. It was a total train wreck. It had been slowly deteriorating into a mess since at least 2004. The only thing that made it tolerable was having a partner in Utah to help fight all of the political garbage.

Most of the discontent was kept out of the public, but there were all kinds of shenanigans going on behind the scenes from what I've been told. It got so bad at one point that BYU actually had a fully developed plan to go independent as early as 2007. The reason they were able to arrange it so fast in 2010, was because they'd already basically done the grunt work (including cutting a deal with Karl Benson and the WAC) three years earlier.

BYU has, in typical fashion, gone so overboard with their "exposure" mantra, that it's become a punch line, but the truth is the lack of it was really hurting the three teams that mattered in that conference. Nobody at Utah or TCU would say otherwise if anybody ever bothered to ask them.

And the money... they made it work, but the financial situation was, in some ways, even worse than the exposure. BYU is making more money right now on BYUtv alone - showing one lousy football game, and its less-interesting basketball games - than the MWC ever paid out for its TV rights in entirety. And, in case you missed it, the MWC payout has decreased even further since The mtn. went belly-up. Oh yeah, and they are probably stuck with that deal until 2019.

Oh, and that ESPN deal with the WCC? Yeah, they don't release the numbers but I've seen them. The WCC payout on its own is also worth more than the MWC's TV deal for all sports ever was.

Leaving the MWC was not a mistake.

If they dont release the numbers how have you seen them? How is byutv making more money than MWC?

[shoganai]

If they dont release the numbers how have you seen them? How is byutv making more money than MWC?

The schools know what the WCC numbers are, and they were shared to me by someone connected with one of the schools. BYUtv's comparative money is more a function of the pitiful MWC TV model than the an indication of tremendous value on BYUtv's part.

The business behind the MWC payout was as convoluted as the conference politics were. I worked and studied in the sports media industry for almost a decade and I still don't understand how Comcast's cash flow was supposedly working.

What I do understand is that about half of the conference quite simply did not produce net revenue - any net revenue. Let me clarify. I'm not saying that they didn't produce enough to increase an eight- or nine-team cash payout. I'm saying that they literally were not worth enough advertising money to even cover TV production costs for their content.

BYU, Utah, and TCU were revenue positive. Air Force was closer to revenue neutral. I believe San Diego State and UNLV ended up being somewhat close to revenue neutral some years because of basketball, but most teams actually cost the TV partners money every time they played a conference game against anyone but the top three. With The mtn. going away this year, the rights to a lot of games are going back to the conference or schools as a Tier 3 package. What's interesting is that a lot of those teams still can't get all of theose games on TV - even locally. If there's not enough value for some local affiliate to bother picking up a Wyoming, New Mexico, or Colorado State game, why would their be any value for regional/national distributors?

Another factor was that Comcast never made any effort to maximize the value of MWC games as a singular entity. It mainly used The mtn., CBS Sports, and Versus, as tools to drive subscribership in the MWC footprint. It was more concerned with consumer market penetration. It could have cut more deals with other carriers, improved distribution, and driven better marketing and advertising, but it was never really interested in sinking capital into the MWC product or improving visibility.

Put that all together, and you have a pitiful $1.3 million TV payout, a bunch of bottom feeders leeching limited revenue away from the teams that were earning all of it, and TV partners that have no real interest in seeing the conference improve.

To think that BYU should have stayed in that situation once they lost their closest ally (and don't think they didn't realize TCU was going to jump ship, as well), is an uninformed opinion to put it kindly.

[statman]

BYU actually had a fully developed plan to go independent as early as 2007.

Leaving the MWC was not a mistake.

BYU was actually public about their plan to leave and go independent - Holmoe talked about it on Monson's radio show in 2007 (2006?) and Locke referenced that discussion in his call for BYU independence from the time he came back to SLC radio until it happened.

Leaving the MWC was an absolute must after Utah left. As is mentioned earlier in this thread, Utah and BYU were partners in fighting off the asininity of the rest of the MWC.

And BYU now makes more from TV in a year as an independent as the entire MWC made from their "TV Deal" if you can call it that. BYU was the ONLY thing that made The Mountain a viable deal. Note - I did not say profitable. I highly doubt it was ever profitable. And note - I said ONLY - and that includes Utah. To The Mountain, Utah was a "nice to have," but BYU was a "must have."

[LA Ute]

BYU was actually public about their plan to leave and go independent - Holmoe talked about it on Monson's radio show in 2007 (2006?) and Locke referenced that discussion in his call for BYU independence from the time he came back to SLC radio until it happened.

Leaving the MWC was an absolute must after Utah left. As is mentioned earlier in this thread, Utah and BYU were partners in fighting off the asininity of the rest of the MWC.

And BYU now makes more from TV in a year as an independent as the entire MWC made from their "TV Deal" if you can call it that. BYU was the ONLY thing that made The Mountain a viable deal. Note - I did not say profitable. I highly doubt it was ever profitable. And note - I said ONLY - and that includes Utah. To The Mountain, Utah was a "nice to have," but BYU was a "must have."

Are there any data supporting this? I don't mean to quibble, and I think what you say is probably true, but I still have never seen any data supporting the claim that BYU attracts more eyeballs to TV sets than Utah does. I will not be surprised if it does.

[shoganai]

Are there any data supporting this? I don't mean to quibble, and I think what you say is probably true, but I still have never seen any data supporting the claim that BYU attracts more eyeballs to TV sets than Utah does. I will not be surprised if it does.

The problem is that data is not very readily available. In order to really quantify comparative ratings, you have to have a formula to adjust for differences in time slots, opponents, competing programming, etc. It's pretty easy to see how many variables can come into play.

So, can I give you definitive numbers showing that BYU has a significantly better TV draw than Utah, all things being equal? No. But, there are professionals that keep their dossiers on these things, and that's what their numbers show.

I'd have to go back through some old e-mails to see the exact numbers I was told. But, if memory serves, BYU accounted for about 50-60% of the MWC TV revenue, on average. Utah accounted for about 25-30%. TCU was usually responsible for all of the rest, with occassional profitability coming from an Air Force-Navy game, or UNLV basketball game here or there.

[LA Ute]

The problem is that data is not very readily available. In order to really quantify comparative ratings, you have to have a formula to adjust for differences in time slots, opponents, competing programming, etc. It's pretty easy to see how many variables can come into play.

So, can I give you definitive numbers showing that BYU has a significantly better TV draw than Utah, all things being equal? No. But, there are professionals that keep their dossiers on these things, and that's what their numbers show.

I'd have to go back through some old e-mails to see the exact numbers I was told. But, if memory serves, BYU accounted for about 50-60% of the MWC TV revenue, on average. Utah accounted for about 25-30%. TCU was usually responsible for all of the rest, with occassional profitability coming from an Air Force-Navy game, or UNLV basketball game here or there.

Fair enough. I still think too many people take it for granted that BYU has a large national following. But it may well be true. That doesn't show up in fan merchandise sales.

[Portland Ute]

And note - I said ONLY - and that includes Utah. To The Mountain, Utah was a "nice to have," but BYU was a "must have."

Whew!

Good thing Utah got out of that situation and into the PAC12 with it's $20+ million per year payout.

[shoganai]

That doesn't show up in fan merchandise sales.

BYU is really dumb about this issue. It's like BYU's merchandise operations are run by the same guys who operate the church distribution centers. I'm mildly surprised that they don't require a current temple recommend to buy BYU gear, as idiotic as they are about marketing it.

Example: Utah has four different Red Zone stores across the Wasatch Front (not including Utah County). BYU stubbornly refuses to do anything beyond the walls of the on-campus bookstore.

[Flystripper]

Whew!

Good thing Utah got out of that situation and into the PAC12 with it's $20+ million per year payout.

All that lack of exposure that the MWC was forcing on the conference really hurt TCU and Utah...

[shoganai]

All that lack of exposure that the MWC was forcing on the conference really hurt TCU and Utah...

What's your point? Are you trying to say it didn't?

[venkman]

Fair enough. I still think too many people take it for granted that BYU has a large national following. But it may well be true. That doesn't show up in fan merchandise sales.

My observation is that ute fans buy more team gear per capita than byu fans.

Not sure why that is. BYU fans too cheap to buy gear? BYU fans embarassed to wear gear in non-game situations because BYU is perceived as "dorky"? Ute fans more likely to be gainfully employed in jobs where dressing up and looking professional is not required, ie. gas stations, so they just need more casual clothes?

[Mormon Red Death]

What's your point? Are you trying to say it didn't?

Why Yes.... Yes he is.

[shoganai]

Why Yes.... Yes he is.

Utah and TCU made up for on the field. They forced their way into the national spotlight by going undefeated two times each. BYU didn't, we get it.

But to argue that levels of exposure don't matter at all is just dumb. The financial impacts alone completely obliterate that debate.