Unga's withdrawing from school.

[byu71]

More rumors that this is a done deal that Unga won't be allowed back. I really thought BYU would do the right thing on this. This really hurts me. I think I might consider taking a break from being a BYU fan for a season because of this.

I am still going to be a fan this year, but I am going to be a bit more passe. I will be a fan watching on the couch. First year since 2000 I am not taking the boys and going on an OOC road trip.

I am hoping doing so will cause the Cougars to have the greatest year ever.

[jay santos]

I am still going to be a fan this year, but I am going to be a bit more passe. I will be a fan watching on the couch. First year since 2000 I am not taking the boys and going on an OOC road trip.

I am hoping doing so will cause the Cougars to have the greatest year ever.

I may get mocked for this, but the lack of forgiveness the school (and church) shows at times really gets me down. Harvey made a huge commitment to BYU and the church by forgoing the NFL draft. And they treat him like this. If this plays out like it looks like it will, I might just sell my season tickets and take the year off.

[Donuthole]

More rumors that this is a done deal that Unga won't be allowed back. I really thought BYU would do the right thing on this. This really hurts me. I think I might consider taking a break from being a BYU fan for a season because of this.

What would you consider "the right thing"? Do you seriously believe that just because Harvey withdrew himself from school as opposed to making the HCO do it for him, he should be allowed back?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here. I haven't really followed this story that closely, other than to know that Harvey's girlfriend is pregnant with Harvey's child. What am I missing that makes it so he should be allowed back sooner than any other person who committed such an egregious violation of the HC? I'm not a big fan of the HC at all, personally, but I don't really see Harvey's case for selective enforcement. Enlighten me.

[byu71]

I may get mocked for this, but the lack of forgiveness the school (and church) shows at times really gets me down. Harvey made a huge commitment to BYU and the church by forgoing the NFL draft. And they treat him like this. If this plays out like it looks like it will, I might just sell my season tickets and take the year off.

You and I are kindred spirits in this regard. However, I have gotten tired of being called an HC hater, obsessed with the honor code, anti church, anti Bronco, anti the Prophet, anti God, anti revelation, anti good morals over the issue.

I think I will just watch. If they can win like Utah does, fine. If they can't, I will stay on the couch.

[Indy Coug]

I may get mocked for this, but the lack of forgiveness the school (and church) shows at times really gets me down. Harvey made a huge commitment to BYU and the church by forgoing the NFL draft. And they treat him like this. If this plays out like it looks like it will, I might just sell my season tickets and take the year off.

I don't know enough details to be siding with either Harvey or BYU. All I can do is mourn his loss.

[jay santos]

What would you consider "the right thing"? Do you seriously believe that just because Harvey withdrew himself from school as opposed to making the HCO do it for him, he should be allowed back?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here. I haven't really followed this story that closely, other than to know that Harvey's girlfriend is pregnant with Harvey's child. What am I missing that makes it so he should be allowed back sooner than any other person who committed such an egregious violation of the HC? I'm not a big fan of the HC at all, personally, but I don't really see Harvey's case for selective enforcement. Enlighten me.

1. The right thing is for him to stay at BYU and finish his senior season. Him getting kicked out whether it be through withdrawal and refusal of reentry or being kicked out by HCO is the same.

2. I feel certain of the fact that a huge number of BYU students have premarital sex every year. I am confident saying the number is > 1,000. And I feel certain that none of them get kicked out of BYU except for extremely rare circumstances.

3. Harvey's in a committed relationship with intention to marry. If you're slicing and analyzing the "egregiousness" of the HC violation, I would put it pretty low in the ranking in comparison to other sinners.

4. Few things anger me more than the church's need to put up a FALSE pious front. BYU knows all these kids are having sex. But a high profile person like Harvey gets punished because of the public image issue. And what exactly is this public image? The national commentator that wrote about this compared it to Scarlet Letter. That's about the worst public image I want for my church.

5. I thought BYU was making progress. Ronney Jenkins was the last BYU player to my knowledge that was kicked out just for normal, heterosexual sex. The others were for legal issues, gang bangs, drugs, etc. Mikeli Wesley left for one semester that cost him less than 1/3 of the season and that was 10 years ago also. I thought these cases were behind us.

6. It's a bit more personal to me because I know the family, and nobody has proved himself a bigger BYU guy than Harvey especially forgoing the NFL draft. And now after all this Harvey's in a terrible situation with respect to NFL prospects and with getting his degree because BYU needed to make an example out of him. BYU chews these people up and spits them out. It's not right.

[byu71]

4. Few things anger me more than the church's need to put up a FALSE pious front.

This is the thing that has, does and I guess always will bug me about the BYU image. It is all about the image. "True blue" fans cry and moan about being treated different. About not being allowed into the PAC10 because of religion. It isn't about your run of the mill, normal, mormons. It is about the right wing orthodox presentation of moronism BYU presents.

I don't know about BYU now, but I know about it when I went there. The vast majority there were your normal mormons. The vocal minority were your Ernie Wilkinsonites.

Is it any wonder that when Darren Williams was asked, BYU or Utah, he quickly says Utah. Do you really think he is a fan of Utah? Do you really think he hates mormons?

BYU has so much good, so many positives and yet this so called honor code they thrown around as a badge of honor has honor in principle only. Not in action.

[Surfah]

1. The right thing is for him to stay at BYU and finish his senior season. Him getting kicked out whether it be through withdrawal and refusal of reentry or being kicked out by HCO is the same.

2. I feel certain of the fact that a huge number of BYU students have premarital sex every year. I am confident saying the number is > 1,000. And I feel certain that none of them get kicked out of BYU except for extremely rare circumstances.

3. Harvey's in a committed relationship with intention to marry. If you're slicing and analyzing the "egregiousness" of the HC violation, I would put it pretty low in the ranking in comparison to other sinners.

4. Few things anger me more than the church's need to put up a FALSE pious front. BYU knows all these kids are having sex. But a high profile person like Harvey gets punished because of the public image issue. And what exactly is this public image? The national commentator that wrote about this compared it to Scarlet Letter. That's about the worst public image I want for my church.

5. I thought BYU was making progress. Ronney Jenkins was the last BYU player to my knowledge that was kicked out just for normal, heterosexual sex. The others were for legal issues, gang bangs, drugs, etc. Mikeli Wesley left for one semester that cost him less than 1/3 of the season and that was 10 years ago also. I thought these cases were behind us.

6. It's a bit more personal to me because I know the family, and nobody has proved himself a bigger BYU guy than Harvey especially forgoing the NFL draft. And now after all this Harvey's in a terrible situation with respect to NFL prospects and with getting his degree because BYU needed to make an example out of him. BYU chews these people up and spits them out. It's not right.

1. Despite my misgivings with the HC, he inked it. He blew it. Personally, I think he should be allowed to finish his degree, but not play.

2. You're probably right. I know you're right. But a huge number aren't having children out of wedlock. And that huge number isn't the face of BYU's football team. Fair or not, the standard isn't the same.

3. Intent to marry? Can we assume this? Besides, does this really make a difference?

4. How is it a false pious front? If BYU had an HC and did nothing about it then it would seem like a false front. That scarlet letter article you're referencing didn't hurt BYU's public image. In fact wasn't Doyel pretty impressed? And if I remember the comments I read were overwhelmingly positive.

5. I think BYU is making progress. They did with Van Noy. Even Unga.

6. Did Harvey really opt out of the draft because there is no bigger BYU guy?

[I.J. Reilly]

1. The right thing is for him to stay at BYU and finish his senior season. Him getting kicked out whether it be through withdrawal and refusal of reentry or being kicked out by HCO is the same.

2. I feel certain of the fact that a huge number of BYU students have premarital sex every year. I am confident saying the number is > 1,000. And I feel certain that none of them get kicked out of BYU except for extremely rare circumstances.

3. Harvey's in a committed relationship with intention to marry. If you're slicing and analyzing the "egregiousness" of the HC violation, I would put it pretty low in the ranking in comparison to other sinners.

4. Few things anger me more than the church's need to put up a FALSE pious front. BYU knows all these kids are having sex. But a high profile person like Harvey gets punished because of the public image issue. And what exactly is this public image? The national commentator that wrote about this compared it to Scarlet Letter. That's about the worst public image I want for my church.

5. I thought BYU was making progress. Ronney Jenkins was the last BYU player to my knowledge that was kicked out just for normal, heterosexual sex. The others were for legal issues, gang bangs, drugs, etc. Mikeli Wesley left for one semester that cost him less than 1/3 of the season and that was 10 years ago also. I thought these cases were behind us.

6. It's a bit more personal to me because I know the family, and nobody has proved himself a bigger BYU guy than Harvey especially forgoing the NFL draft. And now after all this Harvey's in a terrible situation with respect to NFL prospects and with getting his degree because BYU needed to make an example out of him. BYU chews these people up and spits them out. It's not right.

I'll tell you what I don't like, it's that you pretend to know all of the facts and you seem to intentionally misrepresent some things, or in the very least downplay them, in a weak attempt to prove the point you want to make, that BYU and your church are un-christlike, full of a false piety that would make a pharisee blush (and before you decide to malign my comments to you as those made by some "honor code defender" or whatever label you want to smack on me, know that I do not support the honor code as currently constructed and enforced). Here are a few things you seem to want to overlook:

1. If he decided to forgo the NFL draft when he had a legitimate shot at being drafted and making some money, then he made a poor decision. My guess? He had his draft stock evaluated and it wasn't likely that he would be drafted. He stayed at BYU so that he could improve his draft prospects. He didn't stay because he really likes Jake Heaps and wants to make his transition as effortless as possible.

2. He voluntarily withdrew, and that is not the same thing as being kicked out by the honor code office, despite your claim that it is.

3. You seem to want to exclude the possibility that Harvey falls within your "extremely rare circumstances" that qualify someone as a candidate for being removed from BYU for premarital sex. Getting your girlfriend pregnant seems to me to be "extremely rare."

My suggestion to you is that you not be so quick to point a finger.

[cougjunkie]

5. I think BYU is making progress. They did with Van Noy. Even Unga.

6. Did Harvey really opt out of the draft because there is no bigger BYU guy?

If this was his first offense he would be fine but its not. In fact its not even his second and if you count the year he sat out before enrolling its not even his third.

That is the weird thing about Harveys decision is he knew she was expecting yet he still opted to come back to BYU. So either he thought he was above the law or he truly is a BYU guy through and through.

[Surfah]

If this was his first offense he would be fine but its not. In fact its not even his second and if you count the year he sat out before enrolling its not even his third.

That is the weird thing about Harveys decision is he knew she was expecting yet he still opted to come back to BYU. So either he thought he was above the law or he truly is a BYU guy through and through.

Exactly.

I don't understand his decision either.

[SoCalCoug]

If this was his first offense he would be fine but its not. In fact its not even his second and if you count the year he sat out before enrolling its not even his third.

That is the weird thing about Harveys decision is he knew she was expecting yet he still opted to come back to BYU. So either he thought he was above the law or he truly is a BYU guy through and through.

Just doing his part in multiplying and replenishing the earth.

[jay santos]

I'll tell you what I don't like, it's that you pretend to know all of the facts and you seem to intentionally misrepresent some things, or in the very least downplay them, in a weak attempt to prove the point you want to make, that BYU and your church are un-christlike, full of a false piety that would make a pharisee blush (and before you decide to malign my comments to you as those made by some "honor code defender" or whatever label you want to smack on me, know that I do not support the honor code as currently constructed and enforced). Here are a few things you seem to want to overlook:

1. If he decided to forgo the NFL draft when he had a legitimate shot at being drafted and making some money, then he made a poor decision. My guess? He had his draft stock evaluated and it wasn't likely that he would be drafted. He stayed at BYU so that he could improve his draft prospects. He didn't stay because he really likes Jake Heaps and wants to make his transition as effortless as possible.

2. He voluntarily withdrew, and that is not the same thing as being kicked out by the honor code office, despite your claim that it is.

3. You seem to want to exclude the possibility that Harvey falls within your "extremely rare circumstances" that qualify someone as a candidate for being removed from BYU for premarital sex. Getting your girlfriend pregnant seems to me to be "extremely rare."

My suggestion to you is that you not be so quick to point a finger.

1. I'm fine removing that from the criteria. It may be true Harvey has zero love and commitment for BYU and the church and his choice was 100% selfish. I think there's an element of loyalty and commitment there that deserves to be part of the criteria, but it's a small part. The other accompanying point with this is that high profile FB and BB athletes provide a value to BYU much larger than the value BYU brings to them--especially a great one like Harvey. His value to BYU is probably no less than a million a year. It seems BYU owes something to these kids maybe more than what they owe a kid in the general student body.

2. I think it is. Being denied reentry is the same as being kicked out.

3. Sex is sex. Getting someone pregnant doesn't change the seriousness of the act in my mind. The only thing different about it is more people become aware of the sin. That's what I mean by false pious. It's ridiculously Pharasaical to take a set of 1,000 fornicators at BYU and only kick out the one that makes the newspapers. That's downright evil to me. You don't see that?

[Indy Coug]

My guess is that intercourse is pretty rare at BYU for unmarried students. My guess is that everything else under the sun besides intercourse is pretty common.

[Surfah]

My guess is that intercourse is pretty rare at BYU for unmarried students. My guess is that everything else under the sun besides intercourse is pretty common.

I'd speculate as many as 1/2 have had intercourse at some point in their lives and probably 1/5 to 1/4 are sexually active.