Unga's withdrawing from school.

[LA Ute]

I thought my second paragraph was a serious answer.

This becomes an ecclesiastical matter. His local church leader (his bishop I believe) will need to make a judgement whether or not to provide Unga with an endorsement. As PAC has suggested, I'm sure a wedding would probably help that process along.

Now, concerning the BOT in SLC, I suppose they might want to reach down and involve themselves in this matter, but that has risks. Why would they? For appearances sake? I suggested another possible "appearance" that could work to their advantage.

This whole conversation seems to make unfair assumptions about those involved. Being young and stupid at one time and now being the father of young and stupid, I'm just going to let this play out.

Fair enough.

[myboynoah]

Is there any type of guideline regarding probationary periods? Would the punishment "expire" prior to a birth, for instance?

I'd think there would be fewer eyebrows raised on S. Temple (as LA suggested) if he got married and the kid was born prior to football season. (Admittedly, on this point, I am completely talking out my ass.)

Why would eyebrows be raised? This is such a public issue now that I doubt the time difference between a wedding and a birth would have any impact.

Those applying for BYU need an ecclesiastical endorsement from local leadership. I guess they would decide on probationary periods and the like.

For LA and PU, isn't the Church Office Building located on North Temple?

[Portland Ute]

Why would eyebrows be raised? This is such a public issue now that I doubt the time difference between a wedding and a birth would have any impact.

Those applying for BYU need an ecclesiastical endorsement from local leadership. I guess they would decide on probationary periods and the like.

For LA and PU, isn't the Church Office Building located on North Temple?

Yes, the COB is on North Temple. Your point being?

[LA Ute]

For LA and PU, isn't the Church Office Building located on North Temple?

The one where the BOT is located is at 47 East South Temple.

[UtahDan]

Fair enough.

I don't think anyone here truly has any idea re: the question you asked. And high level intervention could occur to push it either direction and no one would ever know it.

[SeattleUte]

I'm glad Unga will be allowed to return, get his degree and play his senior thing. Withdrawing from school and all that falderal should have been unnecessary in the first place.

[myboynoah]

The one where the BOT is located is at 47 East South Temple.

Just curious. Is that from where the Church Educational System is administered? Or is that were all the members of the BOT have their offices?

[hostile]

Just curious. Is that from where the Church Educational System is administered? Or is that were all the members of the BOT have their offices?

The Church Administration Building, where the FP and QOT have their offices, is on 47 E South Temple. It's the gray building just East of the JS Memorial building, with the Greek columns on the front.

[myboynoah]

The Church Administration Building, where the FP and QOT have their offices, is on 47 E South Temple. It's the gray building just East of the JS Memorial building, with the Greek columns on the front.

I didn't know that. If I were prophet, I'd be up at the top of the big white building so that I could look out over my kingdoms and principalities.

[Goatnapper'96]

Your assertion, then, is that there is no inconsistency even amongst regular students?

BTW, this wasn't 20 years ago.

I think when decisions are made by humans, and the decisions are not being made by the same human, it is not a shocking revelation that their is inconsistency. Especially if each situation is treated by individual circumstances and not in a beauracratic method of what facts lead to what punishments on some pocketguide/handbook.

But the key is that if Harvey plays we know the motives of all involved, but the Utefans bothered by that decision, were not pure and we could never understand the damage that does to the LDS Church!

I also think that Mendenhall is sincere about his concern for Harvey and I think that if it were a scrub he would go to bat for that kid as well, just that if it were a scrub nobody would care or hear about it. I have seen Mendenhall go to bat for some kids during his tenure of head coach that did not contribute much on the field. Kyle Leukenga and Paul Walkenhorst, as a senior, are two that come to my memory. That is not to say that I don't firmly believe his publicizing the spiritual nature of BYU football is motivated by issues such as these. I think Mendenhall is genuinely concerned about the character of his players and their spiritual development, but he knows that his ability to influence these decisions is directly correlated to how much of a "mullah" (my words) he is perceived by folks within the BYU admin. We shall see if his clout is there yet, but I don't think Mendenhall's only concern is his football team. I believe that if he felt it would be better for Harvey to not play, he would take that stand.

[byu71]

I think when decisions are made by humans, and the decisions are not being made by the same human, it is not a shocking revelation that their is inconsistency. Especially if each situation is treated by individual circumstances and not in a beauracratic method of what facts lead to what punishments on some pocketguide/handbook.

But the key is that if Harvey plays we know the motives of all involved, but the Utefans bothered by that decision, were not pure and we could never understand the damage that does to the LDS Church!

I also think that Mendenhall is sincere about his concern for Harvey and I think that if it were a scrub he would go to bat for that kid as well, just that if it were a scrub nobody would care or hear about it. I have seen Mendenhall go to bat for some kids during his tenure of head coach that did not contribute much on the field. Kyle Leukenga and Paul Walkenhorst, as a senior, are two that come to my memory. That is not to say that I don't firmly believe his publicizing the spiritual nature of BYU football is motivated by issues such as these. I think Mendenhall is genuinely concerned about the character of his players and their spiritual development, but he knows that his ability to influence these decisions is directly correlated to how much of a "mullah" (my words) he is perceived by folks within the BYU admin. We shall see if his clout is there yet, but I don't think Mendenhall's only concern is his football team. I believe that if he felt it would be better for Harvey to not play, he would take that stand.

I am a kindrid spirit with napper in this regard. There is a difference between perceived strict disciplinarian's. There are those who do so for the love of power and the ability to control. There are others who believe sincerely discipline is what makes a person better. I feel Bronco is a disciplinarian in the latter sense.

I respect, while I may not always agree with the methods of the latter (disciplinarian type), I also don't question they have the welfare of those they have charge of, upmost in their mind.

The first type disciplanarian I mentioned, I don't have much regard for. They function in robotic style and salivate much the same as Pavlov's dog. Give them a circumstance and you know how they will respond. The disciplanarian for discipline sake thinks a disciplinarian of Bronco's ilk is a kindred spirit, when in fact they aren't much alike at all.

It doesn't surprise me that Bronco and Urban are good friends.

[jay santos]

1) YOu are wrong

2) That wasn't my point. Go ahead and reread.

If I'm wrong that you don't have an informed opinion on BYU's Honor Code enforcement, then why would you use a ridiculous, implausible third hand story as your one data point?

[byu71]

If I'm wrong that you don't have an informed opinion on BYU's Honor Code enforcement, then why would you use a ridiculous, implausible third hand story as your one data point?

Just curious Jay. Does anyone have an informed opinion on BYU's honor code. Since I doubt anyone does, why would you go after PU's opinion so hard.

I doubt you have an informed opinion on the plausibility of his third hand story. I see his story as plausible. Of course that is my opinion, albeit not an informed one.

[jay santos]

Just curious Jay. Does anyone have an informed opinion on BYU's honor code. Since I doubt anyone does, why would you go after PU's opinion so hard.

I doubt you have an informed opinion on the plausibility of his third hand story. I see his story as plausible. Of course that is my opinion, albeit not an informed one.

See my post #202 in this thread. I'm not saying I'm an expert on the subject, but I did complete somewhat of a study consisting of a 15 minute telephone conversation with the head of BYU's HCO at the time Stever Baker, had thorough, statistically based conversations with three BYU bishops that I knew and felt I could trust how they and their peers handled things, and documented all the athletic department Honor Code dismissals for the prior ten years. I'm thoroughly convinced the Honor Code is applied disportionately harshly to BYU athletes with the reason being that their cases are high profile and reach the HCO's attention while the case of the average student body doesn't.

As for PU's anecdote. 1) PU received the story third hand 2) two of the three hands have incentive to lie or embellish (the kid and PU's dad's friend) 3) PU's an ALUF that's appalled at the bad BYU athletics does for the church (lol) and 4) the story doesn't jibe with every other data point I have about BYU's Honor Code. The only point I concede is that the Honor Code as well as church discipline in general is pretty random and inconsistent. But there is still a way to a high level to make inferences about whether or not it's on aggregate harsh or forgiving to a subset of students like athletes.

[byu71]

See my post #202 in this thread. I'm not saying I'm an expert on the subject, but I did complete somewhat of a study consisting of a 15 minute telephone conversation with the head of BYU's HCO at the time Stever Baker, had thorough, statistically based conversations with three BYU bishops that I knew and felt I could trust how they and their peers handled things, and documented all the athletic department Honor Code dismissals for the prior ten years. I'm thoroughly convinced the Honor Code is applied disportionately harshly to BYU athletes with the reason being that their cases are high profile and reach the HCO's attention while the case of the average student body doesn't.

As for PU's anecdote. 1) PU received the story third hand 2) two of the three hands have incentive to lie or embellish (the kid and PU's dad's friend) 3) PU's an ALUF that's appalled at the bad BYU athletics does for the church (lol) and 4) the story doesn't jibe with every other data point I have about BYU's Honor Code. The only point I concede is that the Honor Code as well as church discipline in general is pretty random and inconsistent. But there is still a way to a high level to make inferences about whether or not it's on aggregate harsh or forgiving to a subset of students like athletes.

Thanks Jay. That was well done and answers my questions. You probably are more informed on the subject than I. I probably only know of 10 instances where people have related personal experiences about the honor code. First hand experiences from them to me. This is over a 39 year period. I have also talked to a lot (I call maybe 30-40 a lot) of athletes about the honor code. Some in depth, some not.

Based on that experience, I found PU's story credible. That being said, I think athletes because they are public figures are treated harsher, no doubt in my uninformed mind.