Unga's withdrawing from school.

[byu71]

My guess is that intercourse is pretty rare at BYU for unmarried students. My guess is that everything else under the sun besides intercourse is pretty common.

I think you are right. I have heard that dating down there is pretty rare. Well, compared to other universitites.

[UtahDan]

My guess is that intercourse is pretty rare at BYU for unmarried students. My guess is that everything else under the sun besides intercourse is pretty common.

Well of course! The rubbers down a Albertson's are under lock and key!

[jay santos]

I would be shocked if BYU's average chastity issues wasn't quite a bit lower than UVU's or any ward in the church. These kids are screened as to morality and grades before they even get there.

The pool of kids who might be tempted to explore is significantly lower.

I would bet that if you lifted the punishment phase of the honor code, BYU would still be one of the most chaste and sober schools in the nation.

However church leaders, the admin, students and fans could let the media flaunt how moral the school is instead of having to do the pitch themselves.

That's a good point. BYU are UVU are probably not comparable that way.

Here's a question for those that went to BYU: did you refrain from drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex because of the Honor Code or because of your faith in God and commitment to the standards of the church?

I'm not a perfect person but I did not drink alcohol, take drugs or have premarital sex both before BYU and while I was a student at BYU. The motivations I had to keep those standards in high school with no Honor Code were the exact same motivations I had while at BYU with an Honor Code.

[byu71]

That's a good point. BYU are UVU are probably not comparable that way.

Here's a question for those that went to BYU: did you refrain from drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex because of the Honor Code or because of your faith in God and commitment to the standards of the church?

I'm not a perfect person but I did not drink alcohol, take drugs or have premarital sex both before BYU and while I was a student at BYU. The motivations I had to keep those standards in high school with no Honor Code were the exact same motivations I had while at BYU with an Honor Code.

I would have kept the standards with or without BYU. I got married before I went to BYU and the church and my new wife became most important to me.

Even now, I don't live the church standards now only because if I don't, I don't have a shot at making Bishop. If I get the desire to become a Bishop though, maybe I will start going to Sunday School again.

[KillerDog]

I'm having a lot of fun on CB with all this.

[jay santos]

I'm having a lot of fun on CB with all this.

I'm behind you KDog. You really need to say here and stop wasting your time over there.

[DapperDan]

I'm having a lot of fun on CB with all this.

I'm amazed at your patience over there on this. I get frustrated too fast with a lot of them.

[COUGALICIOUS]

Okay, I'm busy at work and missing out. I can't quite get a handle on how K-Dog is arguing against these stock arguments:

1. byu is a private institution, and can be as arbitrary as it wants to be in requiring its students to agree to whatever code of of conduct blah blah blah

2. harvey agreed to it

3. he is suffering the consequences for his decisions

4. there are so many that are so willing to abide by the honor code that those who won't blah blah blah

5. the bretheren are behind it, so it should be supported (i'm hesitant to put "blah blah" on this one)

Can someone either summarize or link me to K-Dog's response to these "stock" arguments in favor of the honor code? Sorry to be that kid who asked for cliffnotes.





(this should never need to be said here on CUF, but please don't assume you know how I come down on this issue, I am being sincere in that I want to understand the best arguments against the arguments provided above)

[Jarid in Cedar]

Okay, I'm busy at work and missing out. I can't quite get a handle on how K-Dog is arguing against these stock arguments:

1. byu is a private institution, and can be as arbitrary as it wants to be in requiring its students to agree to whatever code of of conduct blah blah blah

2. harvey agreed to it

3. he is suffering the consequences for his decisions

4. there are so many that are so willing to abide by the honor code that those who won't blah blah blah

5. the bretheren are behind it, so it should be supported (i'm hesitant to put "blah blah" on this one)

Can someone either summarize or link me to K-Dog's response to these "stock" arguments in favor of the honor code? Sorry to be that kid who asked for cliffnotes.





(this should never need to be said here on CUF, but please don't assume you know how I come down on this issue, I am being sincere in that I want to understand the best arguments against the arguments provided above)

I think that the base argument is similar to speeding. Everyone knows what the speed limit is. They know that they run a risk of penalty if caught. But the biggest gripe people have when caught speeding is the apparent arbitrary enforcement of the law.

[COUGALICIOUS]

So . . . .

1. the HC is arbitrarily enforced (e.g., Unga may get more/less leniency because of the public eye; one bishop will tell, one will keep it a secret

2. way too severe in consequences of the enforcement (a normal kid could just go to UVSC - here, Unga stands to possibly lose millions of dollars)

3. i've read a little, it seems K-Dog is especially bothered by the symbolic aspect of the strict enforcement in this case (BYU's actions don't seem merciful or Christ-like; BYU has become a law unto itself, and has looked beyond the mark)

4. other?


???

Is that it?

[jay santos]

Okay, I'm busy at work and missing out. I can't quite get a handle on how K-Dog is arguing against these stock arguments:

1. byu is a private institution, and can be as arbitrary as it wants to be in requiring its students to agree to whatever code of of conduct blah blah blah

2. harvey agreed to it

3. he is suffering the consequences for his decisions

4. there are so many that are so willing to abide by the honor code that those who won't blah blah blah

5. the bretheren are behind it, so it should be supported (i'm hesitant to put "blah blah" on this one)

Can someone either summarize or link me to K-Dog's response to these "stock" arguments in favor of the honor code? Sorry to be that kid who asked for cliffnotes.





(this should never need to be said here on CUF, but please don't assume you know how I come down on this issue, I am being sincere in that I want to understand the best arguments against the arguments provided above)

I'm not sure how you think any of these arguments are valid, other than the last one. And not everyone involved have equal faith in the brethren in this matter.

[Surfah]

I'd be pretty surprised to see such data in the Ensign. Did it really appear there?

March 1999 Ensign

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620a____

My estimations were a bit higher. The study was taken of HS students, 4,000 seminary students to be exact. I think if you add a few years of college to those stats, my numbers aren't far off.

[falafel]

March 1999 Ensign

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620a____

My estimations were a bit higher. The study was taken of HS students, 4,000 seminary students to be exact. I think if you add a few years of college to those stats, my numbers aren't far off.

You think that just by going to college at BYU the numbers are going to jump from 10% (boys) and 17% (girls) to 50%? No chance.

[Surfah]

You think that just by going to college at BYU the numbers are going to jump from 10% (boys) and 17% (girls) to 50%? No chance.

50% was probably an overstatement, but 40% yes. Based on my companions that I served with on the mission alone (I had 18 of them), nearly 40% weren't virgins.

[falafel]

50% was probably an overstatement, but 40% yes. Based on my companions that I served with on the mission alone (I had 18 of them), nearly 40% weren't virgins.

How many of them went to BYU afterwards? Or before?

I still think 40% is a HUUUUUUGE stretch. I've got my own anecdotal evidence: based on my missionary companions, as well as my close friends at BYU, 100% of unmarried young men at BYU are virgins.