The PAC 10 expansion groundswell

[LiveCoug]

Probably because the criteria have little to do with research. It seems that offering at least 50 doctorates across 15 fields is good enough. BYU gives away lots of doctorates in non-research fields like business, law, and education. The same foundation, using more stringent criteria, listed Utah and even Utah State as "Research I" universities, without a mention of BYU. http://www.washington.edu/tools/universities94.html

This shouldn't be a controversial point. Research is not the focus at BYU, and no one would claim that it is. Research is the focus of a great many other institutions, and these are the ones that will get preferential treatment from the Pac10 and Big10, and probably the other conferences as well.

I'd recommend http://mup.asu.edu/research2009.pdf as an example of a good source.

Thanks for the links.. I was truly curious. Do you have a link to the methodology behind the carnegie "research-extensive" list? I find it hard to believe the only criteria is 50 doctorate degrees in 15 fields...

[woot]

Thanks for the links.. I was truly curious. Do you have a link to the methodology behind the carnegie "research-extensive" list? I find it hard to believe the only criteria is 50 doctorate degrees in 15 fields...

I don't. I'm just going by what's listed on the page you linked. It seems pretty vague, and perhaps there's more that goes into it. Either way, the pdf I linked is very explicit about the extensive criteria they use, and overall it seems like a very good measure of the kinds of things at play here.

I should point out that I'm not arguing that Utah is going to be snapped up by any conference due to its outstanding research programs. While I don't agree with ER's characterization, it is true that Utah isn't elite in most fields. The point is that they are good enough. They consistently rank in the top 100 research universities in the world, so if their sports programs are a good match, academics shouldn't be a major barrier to admission in most conferences ("most" because they're still not good enough for the Big 10 according to the stated rule that candidates must also be AAU members. The Big 10's commitment to that position has been questioned, however).

[LA Ute]

"Far, far better" is an exaggeration, as outside of the life sciences, Utah's graduate programs are a bit of a joke.

[SeattleUte]

I think a bunch of legislators are talking tough. If the P16 channel really paid 3 state schools in excess of $25 million a year and they blocked that for a private school they would be in trouble politically.

If Baylor has to be part of the deal there will be none. The Pac 10 won't have anything to do with Baylor and Ken Starr. I still can't believe it could take Tech or Oklahoma or OK St. But maybe with the two division set up it could be claimed a fire wall separates the elite Pac 8 from the eastern division rabble.

[ERCougar]

I'm obviously not talking their professional programs--those are outstanding (especially their med school)!

[ERCougar]

Utah's graduate programs outside of the life sciences are a joke?

Yup.

[LiveCoug]

I guess Carnegies rankings have changed. Utah is listed as "very high" research and BYU is listed as "high" research.

Here is the "high" list

http://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/srp.php?clq={%22basic2005_ids%22%3A%2216%22}&limit =0,50

Here is the "very high" list

http://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/srp.php?clq={%22basic2005_ids%22%3A%2215%22}&limit =0,50

[SeattleUte]

Yup.

Is this your field?

[LiveCoug]

http://twitter.com/ChipBrownOB/statuses/15605678105

[myboynoah]

http://twitter.com/ChipBrownOB/statuses/15605678105

I think SU just felt some burning in his bossom.

[BlueHair]

http://twitter.com/ChipBrownOB/statuses/15605678105

BYU, TCU, and Boise St. would be suitable replacements for Nebraska, Colorado, and Missouri. In fact, it would be an upgrade. If the Big 12 loses three teams I feel that BYU has a shot. If they only lose one or two, I'm afraid. Very afraid.

[SeattleUte]

Probably because the criteria have little to do with research. It seems that offering at least 50 doctorates across 15 fields is good enough. BYU gives away lots of doctorates in non-research fields like business, law, and education. The same foundation, using more stringent criteria, listed Utah and even Utah State as "Research I" universities, without a mention of BYU. http://www.washington.edu/tools/universities94.html

This shouldn't be a controversial point. Research is not the focus at BYU, and no one would claim that it is. Research is the focus of a great many other institutions, and these are the ones that will get preferential treatment from the Pac10 and Big10, and probably the other conferences as well.

I'd recommend http://mup.asu.edu/research2009.pdf as an example of a good source.

Well, you've alluded to something that makes BYU unique. There are many outstanding universities that don't make research a primary mission. Dartmouth, Boston University, Notre Dame and Georgetown come to mind. These are schools that (purportedly) like BYU have staked out missions emphasizing undergraduate education and professional schools. But even these schools (none of whom are AAU) are on the reserch grid, rated with "very high research activity" by Carnegie, though with not by any stretch Texas sized research budgets. They all have research budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. It's highly unusual the way BYU has virtually no research and this essentially puts it in a category by itself. BYU's research activity is like a small liberal arts college's.

Then too, BYU is unique in the pervasive quality of a very conservative religion's institutional control. I can see why mainstream universities would think this is an intangible factor that hurts its reputation.

[ERCougar]

Is this your field?

Nope--not talking professional programs. Or was that your point?

[SeattleUte]

Nope--not talking professional programs. Or was that your point?

I don't think you are qualified to rate Utah's gradutate programs. I doubt you've even accessed much that's available to lay people on this.

[Jarid in Cedar]

This was an interesting read. Can't say that it is big on facts, but it is an interesting opinion.


Big 12 and Big East killed themselves