"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[MarkGrace]

Oh yeah, I'm going to pimp G-Time on one thing here real quick. The last couple of years, when he had starts like he did last night, he was absolutely cooked for the rest of the game. Over the last several months, he's recovered from several bad starts to end up with solid nights overall. That's been a really nice development for him.

[MarkGrace]

I could see at least 3 (and maybe all four) being mid-high teens scorers at some point (with Enes having the most realistic chance to get around 20) and we're just going to have to hope it works in the way it did for that Detroit team that had a bunch of hybrid 2/3 options (Rasheed, Tayshaun, Rip, Chauncey) but no traditional #1.

To make this work you also have to be a great defensive unit (Indy is doing it now the same way that Detroit team did, though I don't think they have the same upside short of Granger recovering near peak form -- and that's not happening), and I think this group could potentially be that. Just need to find another good defensive player at the lead guard position and bring in a real defensive coach.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

G-Time is the best player in the world and I'm his #1 cheerleader and all that, but I don't think he'll ever be a #1 option. And if we're talking about really good teams (like conference finals or finals good), I'm not even sure he'll even be a number 2. I think he tops out as a guy who gets you 17 or so a night and some nights you can ride for a big night. But I don't think he'll ever be that +20 a night guy that really makes for a 1st or 2nd option (2nd on a really good team).

I'm starting to wonder where that guy is going to come from on this team. Right now the only guy I can really see getting there is Enes, but I still think he'll be prevented from becoming a true #1 because of his pretty mediocre athleticism. With Derrick (and I know young bigs progress at such different rates) right now I just feel he doesn't have the instincts for it either. On nights last when his offensive game looks pretty fluid, his upside looks like a #2 option. But there are other nights when he looks a little more clumsy and more of a 3rd or 4th kind of guy. And Alec I like, but don't see as a major scorer either.

I could see at least 3 (and maybe all four) being mid-high teens scorers at some point (with Enes having the most realistic chance to get around 20) and we're just going to have to hope it works in the way it did for that Detroit team that had a bunch of hybrid 2/3 options (Rasheed, Tayshaun, Rip, Chauncey) but no traditional #1.

From what I could see, those Pistons are the only team to win a title that had their leading scorer averaging fewer than 18 ppg (Hamilton was at 17.6). The next closest? The 89-90 Pistons with Thomas at 18.4, and Pistons the year before that were led by Dantley at 18.6. Those teams were rare examples of squads that were great defensively (2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in overall def. rating, respectively) and had a balanced mix of offensive skill sets on offense. The other title teams that didn't have what you would call an elite scorer? The Big Three Celtics, but Pierce averaged 19.6 and you knew you could toss it to him to get a big bucket, and again they were incredible on defense. And then you could probably say the Spurs, though Duncan and Robinson in that first title were plenty good at tossing the ball in the hoop. Then you have the rest of the title winning teams all being led by at least one elite scorer: Jordan, James,Kobe, Kobe/Shaq, Hakeem, Dirk, Wade, Bird/McHale, Magic/Kareem/Worthy. It certainly makes building a true contender far easier when you start with a superstar scorer, but one who also is your team's best competitor to it trickles down to the rest of the roster from the top.

With regard to Hayward, would we say the concern is more of him not being capable of being a consistent 20 ppg guy, or that he hasn't yet shown the game that you know in a close game you can put the ball in his hands the final 3 minutes and know that he'll get a good shot for himself or for someone else? Starting as early as his rookie season, he was inconsistent all year long, many times looking over-matched or just like he didn't fit, until the last month the offense was turned over to him. He went from 6 ppg on 5 shots the previous month to averaging 36 mpg, 16 ppg on 10 FGAs, while shooting 58/57/73 for the last 7 games of the year in April. (It's crazy to look at those numbers and see him only getting 10 FGAs). Last year he again started inconsistently, as he was used more as a complimentary player, or as I say for what Corbin wants him to do some nights, the Bobby Hansen role. But as his minutes went up, and more importantly as the ball was put in his hands as more of a facilitator and creator to end the year again, he again averaged 16 ppg on 10 FGA in April, shooting 50/49/88 while also averaging 3.5 apg. Same old story this year: start the year uninvolved, not assertive enough, whatever you want to call it. He gets moved to the bench, away from Al and Mo and becomes a focal point of the offense, and his entire game changes AGAIN. Only 4 games in Feb, but in those 4 games he finally had his shots bump up to 12/gm and his ppg was 19.3. In April he's at 13 FGA/gm, and 17.7 ppg. The highest current ppg in the league for someone with 13 FGAs or fewer is Chris Bosh at 16.7.

The discussion could open to if more minutes for someone results in more rhythm and better play, or if better play begets more minutes. But in my biased view, Hayward is a perfect case of a player that sees his production and efficiency spike significantly not just with increased minutes but with increased offensive involvement. His splits over the first 3 years have shown he can score 17 ppg on 12.5 FGA/gm and shoot great percentages when he's over 30 mpg and his usage rate is up. The next point of debate would probably be what happens to him when he is the primary option consistently and schemes are put in place to stop him. I'd love to find that out. And it strikes me as incredibly absurd that Utah hasn't found that out yet headed into this off-season. Opposing teams have shown a definite game plan against Gordon, playing extremely physical and usually applying significant pressure no matter where he is on the court. So it isn't as if he's just been getting buy riding another player's coattails. I still think that in a lot of ways Hayward's offensive game is comparable to Paul Pierce. Both guys are more athletic than they often appear, settling more on body position, step backs, and picking times to take jumpers over driving to the lane constantly, but they both get to the line at great rates. Will Gordon ever be the 24-26 ppg guy Pierce was in his prime? I can't see it. We would've seen more by now, and Hayward's personality doesn't match, at least it doesn't seem to. But Pierce also averaged 18-20 FGAs those seasons.

I like to believe that all of the core four aren't close to their ceilings. But I realize that is likely just hopeful wanting and not something realistic. But with what Kanter showed this year I can't imagine him being less productive on offense than someone like Greg Monroe when he's getting 32-34 mpg. So if Hayward can be the lead guy at 17-19 ppg, that's a pretty good start. But without someone like Durant or James or Kobe or even Harden leading the way, if the team wants to be more than a dangerous out in the playoffs, it will mean developing a far better defensive profile and/or ensuring that there are more 3pt shooters to help make Kanter and Favors more effective on offense. This is going to be a great off-season to see the initial steps in Lindsey's plan.

[MarkGrace]

Kevin Murphy out with skin infection. We've got not shot in this one.

[MarkGrace]

Horrible foul by Foye to end the half. Ugh.

[MarkGrace]

Jazz didn't shoot a single free throw the entire half. Impressive.

[MarkGrace]

Favors offensive game looks much better the last couple weeks. Those consecutive possessions where he went baby right hook into the middle of the floor and then baseline spin with the lefty was really impressive. I have to think some of this is the benefit of being in a three man rotation. You can get a consistent rotation and minutes distribution going with three guys, but with four it seems to get a little more erratic since the 3rd and 4th guy are basically competing for minutes.

[MarkGrace]

DMC! Love that guy.

[Blueintheface]

I'm still waiting for an offensive switch to flip for Derrick but I love just about every other part of his game. I'd even forgive his silly fouls if I knew he had an unstoppable move.

[MarkGrace]

They're going to blow this.

[MarkGrace]

David Lee with a light beard looks a bit like Brandon Flowers.

[MarkGrace]

Favors with the huge block and Mo the dagger in the eye.

[CardiacCoug]

Great win for the Jazz! Now 3-18 on the road against .500 or better teams, right? That's gotta bode well for the playoffs against the #1 seed.

Favors is the man. I like watching this team and want the Jazz to get the playoff spot -- I don't care if the lottery pick is in their best interest long term.

[CardiacCoug]

Jazz are hanging in there -- FAVORS!

[Blueintheface]

Jazz had one of their best defensive quarters of the season and they could only trim the lead from 10 to 7. Still fighting. Gordon with a great 2nd half.