"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[MarkGrace]

I don't buy a lottery pick that can't win the Big Sky, I don't buy a lottery pick that can't Loyal Marymount in the CIT.

Yeah I'm sure he put up a bunch of good numbers, and if he ends up being a super stud in the NBA I'll eat crow. IMO a lottery pick should be able to get his team to the NCAA regardless of what league he is in.

He played against 2 NCAA teams, BYU and Cal, in those games his gaudy numbers went down to 14.5 PPG, 9-29 from the field, 4-14 3FG, 2.5 APG. I'm not really excited by what he did against Texas-Arlington or Portland State, or that he was as good against LMU as Noah Hartsock.

You're drawing a lot of individual conclusions based on things that have team applications, but that's fine, a lot of people tend to do that.

I don't think he'll be a super stud in the NBA, but I don't think that's anybody's expectation of him. Most lotto picks aren't destined to be super studs.

[MarkGrace]

Were Scottie Pippen's Central Arkansas teams more successful than Weber? Karl Malone's LA Tech teams? I don't know, but I imagine the NBA has been littered with impact players who didn't win in college - even at small schools.

Of course it is. How about Paul Millsap? Did his teams ever make the tourney? Did Burks?

I think the disconnect comes by way of the fact that we're not used to seeing these types being projected this high in the lottery -- there's just not a lot of precedent for it. What if Sap would have been projected as a lotto pick? People probably would have thought that was crazy. But in hindsight would he have been worth it? Absolutely. He's probably one of the five or so best players from his draft class.

The other disconnect is that I think people hear "lottery pick" and think it means something that it doesn't.

[smokymountainrain]

Of course it is. How about Paul Millsap? Did his teams ever make the tourney? Did Burks?

I think the disconnect comes by way of the fact that we're not used to seeing these types being projected this high in the lottery -- there's just not a lot of precedent for it. What if Sap would have been projected as a lotto pick? People probably would have thought that was crazy. But in hindsight would he have been worth it? Absolutely. He's probably one of the five or so best players from his draft class.

The other disconnect is that I think people hear "lottery pick" and think it means something that it doesn't.

Yes, that is why I brought up Malone and Pippen. Both projected top 13 picks. I realize with you I'm likely preaching to the choir, but I don't think it would be hard to find several more examples of lottery picks who didn't win big at small schools.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

You're drawing a lot of individual conclusions based on things that have team applications, but that's fine, a lot of people tend to do that.

I don't think he'll be a super stud in the NBA, but I don't think that's anybody's expectation of him. Most lotto picks aren't destined to be super studs.

If placing that type of team accomplishment as a requirement for Lillard, then guys that go to big name schools should win conference tournaments and make it to at least the Sweet 16 given the talent they get to play with. But for some reason that almost never comes up when projecting where those players will go in the draft.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

It was team accomplishments I listed, if you ignore the part about how he was average to sub-average against the 2 NCAA tourney teams he faced.

I believe he is being projected in the 8-10 range correct? Last year the guys in that range were Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker and Jimmer. Were those guys that put up bad numbers against the good teams they faced and feasted on HS-esque teams? I'm not as smart as some of you, I thought those guys probably played well against decent competition but maybe they were small school superstars.

I love the argument that basketball is a team game, and so the fact that a projected top 10 pick can't win the Big Sky doesn't mean anything. There are zero other NBA players in the Big Sky.

Also La Tech went to the NCAAs Mailman's last 2 years there, including the S16 his last year, I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with Malone though since it was a team game.

Edit-Again I realize that in the team game it means nothing, but Lilard will be the first top ten pick since Spencer Hawes in 2007 to play college basketball and not play in an NCAA game. Those good players picked in the top ten sure do seem to find a way to get on good teams over the last few years.

[MarkGrace]

It was team accomplishments I listed, if you ignore the part about how he was average to sub-average against the 2 NCAA tourney teams he faced.

No, I wasn't ignoring that. I didn't say "team accomplishment," I said "team application."

I believe he is being projected in the 8-10 range correct? Last year the guys in that range were Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker and Jimmer. Were those guys that put up bad numbers against the good teams they faced and feasted on HS-esque teams? I'm not as smart as some of you, I thought those guys probably played well against decent competition but maybe they were small school superstars.

Jimmer was actually pretty similar to the same argument you're making, just to a different degree. A decent amount of people were saying that he was putting up big numbers against HS competition and that he couldn't do it against the big boys from the power conferences. Then he got blown up against Florida and everyone was saying "see, I told you so, this guy shouldn't be a lotto pick, isn't going to make it in the NBA, etc." But that was also an instance that had team applications -- when your team is just outclassed from a physical and talent perspective, that has an impact on the individual, no matter how good he may be.

I love the argument that basketball is a team game, and so the fact that a projected top 10 pick can't win the Big Sky doesn't mean anything. There are zero other NBA players in the Big Sky.

There are actually more than zero players from the Big Sky in the NBA. In fact, there is at least one who has been pretty productive and similarly didn't make the NCAA tourney -- I actually don't recall his team even winning the Big Sky regular season at any point. But that doesn't really have much to do with anything. The real question is whether a player has the tools to make it, despite whatever his conference affiliation may be. If you don't think he has the tools, that's fine; but everything you've suggested so far is just circumstantial.

Also La Tech went to the NCAAs Mailman's last 2 years there, including the S16 his last year, I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with Malone though since it was a team game.

That's pretty cool -- I didn't know that. Mail was a beast.

[smokymountainrain]

It was team accomplishments I listed, if you ignore the part about how he was average to sub-average against the 2 NCAA tourney teams he faced.

I believe he is being projected in the 8-10 range correct? Last year the guys in that range were Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker and Jimmer. Were those guys that put up bad numbers against the good teams they faced and feasted on HS-esque teams? I'm not as smart as some of you, I thought those guys probably played well against decent competition but maybe they were small school superstars.

I love the argument that basketball is a team game, and so the fact that a projected top 10 pick can't win the Big Sky doesn't mean anything. There are zero other NBA players in the Big Sky.

Also La Tech went to the NCAAs Mailman's last 2 years there, including the S16 his last year, I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with Malone though since it was a team game.

Edit-Again I realize that in the team game it means nothing, but Lilard will be the first top ten pick since Spencer Hawes in 2007 to play college basketball and not play in an NCAA game. Those good players picked in the top ten sure do seem to find a way to get on good teams over the last few years.

John Stockton's Gonzaga team finished 4th in the WCC his senior season. They were 13-14 his junior season. As a Jazz fan, I am glad the Jazz front office didn't think like you back in '84

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

John Stockton's Gonzaga team finished 4th in the WCC his senior season. They were 13-14 his junior season. As a Jazz fan, I am glad the Jazz front office didn't think like you back in '84

As a Jazz fan I'm glad the Jazz front office doesn't think like you back in '10. So we have that going for us both!

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread...144#post378144

[smokymountainrain]

As a Jazz fan I'm glad the Jazz front office doesn't think like you back in '10. So we have that going for us both!

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread...144#post378144

The major difference here is that I'm not attempting to defend myself. I was wrong about Elder Hayward. Now if you will admit how ridiculous you are being in this current discussion, we can be done with this.

One more thing- Lillard scored 36 against St Marys - they were an NCAA tourney team. 15 and 10 against BYU. 30, 7 and 5 against UW, a team many argued was better than Cal.

[MarkGrace]

As a Jazz fan I'm glad the Jazz front office doesn't think like you back in '10. So we have that going for us both!

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread...144#post378144

I think we all need to take a mulligan on Elder Hayward. I think every Jazz fan had a meltdown to some extent or another after that pick.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

The major difference here is that I'm not attempting to defend myself. I was wrong about Elder Hayward. Now if you will admit how ridiculous you are being in this current discussion, we can be done with this.

One more thing- Lillard scored 36 against St Marys - they were an NCAA tourney team. 15 and 10 against BYU. 30, 7 and 5 against UW, a team many argued was better than Cal.

You should read my original post if you think I am not willing to say I'm wrong if he turns out to be worthy of a top ten pick.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Could Nash's plans mean draft picks for Utah?

Nash's top potential destinations have been listed as Toronto, Portland, and Phoenix, with Maimi and NY being long shots. Toronto has been rumored to be interested in moving the #8 pick for an established player, and Rudy Gay has been the guy mentioned the most. Adding Gay, Valanciunas, and Nash to Bargnani and DeRozan would make that team interesting. Toronto reportedly wants a wing, so Utah would have to involved w/a 3rd team to get in on this. Maybe someone else needs a big, sends a wing to the Raps, and Utah gets the 8th.

I assume Portland might view their 6th and 11th picks as ways to add a vet or two to their team to help entice Nash to sign with them. But will they be willing to move those picks before free agency? Moving the 6th pick for Millsap and Utah's first next year, re-sign Batum, and that roster looks pretty solid with Nash on board for a year or two. Maybe Portland takes Lillard at 6 and then will be open to moving him if Nash signs.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Could Nash's plans mean draft picks for Utah?

Nash's top potential destinations have been listed as Toronto, Portland, and Phoenix, with Maimi and NY being long shots. Toronto has been rumored to be interested in moving the #8 pick for an established player, and Rudy Gay has been the guy mentioned the most. Adding Gay, Valanciunas, and Nash to Bargnani and DeRozan would make that team interesting. Toronto reportedly wants a wing, so Utah would have to involved w/a 3rd team to get in on this. Maybe someone else needs a big, sends a wing to the Raps, and Utah gets the 8th.

I assume Portland might view their 6th and 11th picks as ways to add a vet or two to their team to help entice Nash to sign with them. But will they be willing to move those picks before free agency? Moving the 6th pick for Millsap and Utah's first next year, re-sign Batum, and that roster looks pretty solid with Nash on board for a year or two. Maybe Portland takes Lillard at 6 and then will be open to moving him if Nash signs.

At least Portland finally has a GM* and may actually have a plan for building the team.

*Assuming he doesn't offend Paul Allen in the next couple of days and gets fired before the draft.

[Blueintheface]

Could Nash's plans mean draft picks for Utah?

Nash's top potential destinations have been listed as Toronto, Portland, and Phoenix, with Maimi and NY being long shots. Toronto has been rumored to be interested in moving the #8 pick for an established player, and Rudy Gay has been the guy mentioned the most. Adding Gay, Valanciunas, and Nash to Bargnani and DeRozan would make that team interesting. Toronto reportedly wants a wing, so Utah would have to involved w/a 3rd team to get in on this. Maybe someone else needs a big, sends a wing to the Raps, and Utah gets the 8th.

I assume Portland might view their 6th and 11th picks as ways to add a vet or two to their team to help entice Nash to sign with them. But will they be willing to move those picks before free agency? Moving the 6th pick for Millsap and Utah's first next year, re-sign Batum, and that roster looks pretty solid with Nash on board for a year or two. Maybe Portland takes Lillard at 6 and then will be open to moving him if Nash signs.

Lillard and the Blazers = perfect fit IMO. I don't think they mortgage his future abilities against what Nash has left in the tank.

[MarkGrace]

"The Blazers, Warriors, Raptors and Hornets are also looking at various options with their picks. I think the Blazers at No. 6 or No. 11 are the likeliest of that bunch to make a trade. They have interest in Jazz forward Paul Millsap and Rockets guard Kyle Lowry."

From Ford.