"You Gotta Love It Baby" Official Jazz thread

[LiveCoug]

Eh, I was arguing this last night on Cougarboard, but I don't think anything has significantly changed by not getting the 14 pick this year.

Agreed.

Jazz still have that nice fat trade exception they can use to overpay someone to come to Utah. Gotta use that soon.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Eh, I was arguing this last night on Cougarboard, but I don't think anything has significantly changed by not getting the 14 pick this year.

I don't think getting a late lottery pick, which I think would've been valuable in a trade rather than picking another rookie, was going to change much.

I'm referring to how the organization, particularly the coaching staff, handled the team this year. Making the playoffs would've been fine if it had been accomplished with Favors playing 30 mpg, and Hayward being a focal point of the offense consistently, and at least one of Miles, Bell, or Howard being left off the team from. If those things had happened, I'd agree w/Hollinger that the team was truly ahead of schedule. As things played out, I don't really think so.

[LiveCoug]

This was Coach Corbin's first real year as a head coach. I'm quite certain he learned a few things. I expect major improvement next year from him.

[smokymountainrain]

I don't think getting a late lottery pick, which I think would've been valuable in a trade rather than picking another rookie, was going to change anything.

I'm referring to how the organization, particularly the coaching staff, handled the team this year. Making the playoffs would've been fine if it had been accomplished with Favors playing 30 mpg, and Hayward being a focal point of the offense consistently, and at least one of Miles, Bell, or Howard had been left off the team from the beginning. If those things had happened, I'd agree w/Hollinger that the team was truly ahead of schedule. As things played out, I don't really think so.

If that series against SA taught me anything it was that Favors is, without question, the best player on the team. That the Jazz best player came off the bench and played so few minutes all season is very frustrating. I know we wanted 30 minutes for Favors this season, but even that would have been too few. Favors should have been playing 35+.

[MarkGrace]

I'm referring to how the organization, particularly the coaching staff, handled the team this year. Making the playoffs would've been fine if it had been accomplished with Favors playing 30 mpg, and Hayward being a focal point of the offense consistently, and at least one of Miles, Bell, or Howard had been left off the team from the beginning. If those things had happened, I'd agree w/Hollinger that the team was truly ahead of schedule. As things played out, I don't really think so.

My only really significant gripe w/r/t the young guys is Favors. He averaged just 21.3 mpg, and I would have really liked to see more for him. And I think that could have been accomplished fairly easily by sneaking Sap in at the 3 for some minutes way earlier than it happened.

On the flip side, I think he got the biggest benefit out of the playoffs out of anyone on the roster. I think he really showed the potential to be a difference maker in those games, and, as Corbin said, his learning curve looked like it really started to flatten. His play in the second half, coupled with his showing in the playoffs, I think puts us in a much more informed position to potentially make a move with Al or Sap (though I wouldn't be surprised if neither is moved quite yet).

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

My only really significant gripe w/r/t the young guys is Favors. He averaged just 21.3 mpg, and I would have really liked to see more for him. And I think that could have been accomplished fairly easily by sneaking Sap in at the 3 for some minutes way earlier than it happened.

On the flip side, I think he got the biggest benefit out of the playoffs out of anyone on the roster. I think he really showed the potential to be a difference maker in those games, and, as Corbin said, his learning curve looked like it really started to flatten. His play in the second half, coupled with his showing in the playoffs, I think puts us in a much more informed position to potentially make a move with Al or Sap (though I wouldn't be surprised if neither is moved quite yet).

Agreed. But the reason the last part of the year and playoffs seemed to bring the Favors picture into better focus is because Corbin's use of him earlier in the season kept it from becoming clearer much earlier.

[MarkGrace]

Agreed. But the reason the last part of the year and playoffs seemed to bring the Favors picture into better focus is because Corbin's use of him earlier in the season kept it from becoming clearer much earlier.

I was just looking at his splits just now and he averaged less than 20mpg in the first half of the season. That's nutso.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

I was just looking at his splits just now and he averaged less than 20mpg in the first half of the season. That's nutso.

Such a weird season. Last year ends with talk of using the big lineup more so those 3 guys can see the court as much as possible. Favors comes into camp and everyone is talking about how hard he worked and how good he looks in practice. Favors stars the first 3 games, kills it in his home debut, and then is relegated to the bench and we never see the big lineup for most of the season.

I get critical of the lack of recognition given to the defensive side of the ball by the media, award voters, etc, but it really is shocking how often it seems like coaches disregard a player's defensive value to the team, and instead get blinded by their weaknesses on offense.

[Jacob]

Hollinger is wrong first of all because he said we had "two star bigs" referring to Millsap and Jefferson. If they were "star bigs" at least one of them is not part of the plan going forward and IMO, their trade value is diminishing in at least 2 ways. 1) If a teams is going to trade for a star (or high quality player), they want to trade for one who has some time left on his contract, not one who will be a FA at the end of the season. Thus Jefferson's value has diminished over the past year. 2) The poor showing in the playoffs reinforces the idea that neither of these guys can lift you to a lot of wins. Especially Jefferson, he looks like a guy who puts up offensive numbers but has always been a loser.

By not playing Favors, Burks and Kanter more in the regular season, they didn't develop as much as they otherwise would have. Note: I probably wouldn't have played them at all in the playoffs because I would have been trying to win.

I just have the feeling that this was almost a total waste of a season. We are in the same spot we were a year ago. Management made no improvements, and coaching decision caused much less development than we should have seen.

[Donuthole]

Hollinger is wrong first of all because he said we had "two star bigs" referring to Millsap and Jefferson. If they were "star bigs" at least one of them is not part of the plan going forward and IMO, their trade value is diminishing in at least 2 ways. 1) If a teams is going to trade for a star (or high quality player), they want to trade for one who has some time left on his contract, not one who will be a FA at the end of the season. Thus Jefferson's value has diminished over the past year. 2) The poor showing in the playoffs reinforces the idea that neither of these guys can lift you to a lot of wins. Especially Jefferson, he looks like a guy who puts up offensive numbers but has always been a loser.

By not playing JeffersonFavors, Burks and Kanter more in the regular season, they didn't develop as much as they otherwise would have. Note: I probably wouldn't have played them at all in the playoffs because I would have been trying to win.

I just have the feeling that this was almost a total waste of a season. We are in the same spot we were a year ago. Management made no improvements, and coaching decision caused much less development than we should have seen.

FIFY

[Jacob]

FIFY

I really need an editor.

[MarkGrace]

Hollinger is wrong first of all because he said we had "two star bigs" referring to Millsap and Jefferson. If they were "star bigs" at least one of them is not part of the plan going forward and IMO, their trade value is diminishing in at least 2 ways. 1) If a teams is going to trade for a star (or high quality player), they want to trade for one who has some time left on his contract, not one who will be a FA at the end of the season. Thus Jefferson's value has diminished over the past year. 2) The poor showing in the playoffs reinforces the idea that neither of these guys can lift you to a lot of wins. Especially Jefferson, he looks like a guy who puts up offensive numbers but has always been a loser.

You're only making the case for one of the two. Sap still has time on his deal. And Jefferson is expiring, which always has value.

I have no idea what one defines as a star. Certainly they're not superstars, but both of them gave the Jazz borderline AS production this year. Jefferson posted a PER of 22.88, which was 12th in the league and 3rd among C's. Paul had a PER 21.85, good for 19th in the league and 5th among PF's. Of course PER doesn't take into account defense and all that, but every player has warts. Fans just love to complain about and eat their own. Both of those guys were very productive this year.

[BGRTHNUMEGO]

Tyrone Corbin "we learned the big lineup can be effective for us at times"

Again.

[Jacob]

You're only making the case for one of the two. Sap still has time on his deal. And Jefferson is expiring, which always has value.

I have no idea what one defines as a star. Certainly they're not superstars, but both of them gave the Jazz borderline AS production this year. Jefferson posted a PER of 22.88, which was 12th in the league and 3rd among C's. Paul had a PER 21.85, good for 19th in the league and 5th among PF's. Of course PER doesn't take into account defense and all that, but every player has warts. Fans just love to complain about and eat their own.

I disagree. Most fans over-rate the value of the players they have (at least the pretty good ones). No trade proposal is ever good enough. (Though fans always do have certain players that they hate on regardless). But I don't think I'm being a hater. I think the Jazz would have won almost as many games without Al or Paul as they did with. So I'm not hating on Paul or Jefferson, I'm just sticking by my oft-repeated refrain that the Jazz team would have improved by trading one of them for a player where they needed more help i.e. at the 1-3 positions. And, I would have traded Jefferson, if I could have, but would have been open to trading Millsap if he brought better value in return.

And I stand by the statement that Jefferson is of diminishing value in a trade. Last time a team traded him (Minny) all they got was this year's protected pick from the Jazz. Expiring contracts are not especially valuable. Usually the contracts expire with no trade.

[MarkGrace]

I disagree. Most fans over-rate the value of the players they have (at least the pretty good ones). No trade proposal is ever good enough. (Though fans always do have certain players that they hate on regardless).

Well, I agree there's a tendency to do that as well. But loosely defined by production as it can be measured, we're talking about two of the top 20 or so most productive players in the league. Again, I'm not sure that meets the definintion of "star," but it can't be that fall out of the ballpark. It's AS level production. Fans love to revel in speculation, but fact of the matter is that the speculation rarely results in production greater than what you already have.

But I don't think I'm being a hater. I think the Jazz would have won almost as many games without Al or Paul as they did with. So I'm not hating on Paul or Jefferson, I'm just sticking by my oft-repeated refrain that the Jazz team would have improved by trading one of them for a player where they needed more help i.e. at the 1-3 positions. And, I would have traded Jefferson, if I could have, but would have been open to trading Millsap if he brought better value in return.

Are you saying w/o Paul or Al but with whatever they could have received in return for one of them? Or just without one of them? If it's the latter I have a hard time agreeing. If it's the former I guess I'd have to know what we were getting for one of them (though I'm not sure how you reconcile this with the argument that they have little to no trade value).

And I stand by the statement that Jefferson is of diminishing value in a trade. Last time a team traded him (Minny) all they got was this year's protected pick from the Jazz. Expiring contracts are not especially valuable. Usually the contracts expire with no trade.

They got more than this year's pick. They got Kosta plus two first rounders. Would the Jazz get that back in a deal now? I don't know. But I do think he has shown to be a more valuable player than he was at the time they traded for him (where he was just one year removed from knee surgery and coming off of one of his least productive years with the TWolves). What that means in terms of moving him (if they choose to do that) remains to be seen, but at a minimum a large expiring deal always has at least some value. Such contracts were big pieces in deals for Gasol and CP3, among numerous other examples.