Confirmed: Senator Mike Lee is a wanker

[Commando]

They sure did. What better way to try and stick it to Trump than make sure one of his biggest GOP critics and roadblock loses, am I right? Hooray for the non grifters at the Lincoln Project!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...181#blogHeader

lol Yeah the lady who voted not to convict because she felt like Trump had 'learned his lesson?' Yeah she's a real tuffy.

[Commando]

Speaking of shitty apologists with shitty apologies... back to the topic.

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[MartyFunkhouser]

Speaking of shitty apologists with shitty apologies... back to the topic.

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Mike Lee always the Trump lapdog.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ugh... Mike Lee is the worst.

[BlueK]

Ok, ok. Looks like we are going to have to define the parameters of what makes a "worse" president. Look, I think Trump is probably one of the most morally lacking, divisive, and ill intentioned person to be president. This is certainly true since Nixon. But the only way to truly judge how bad a president is, is the long term consequences of their policies and behavior. And right now we just dont have enough data. We arent even a month removed from his presidency. Right now the GOP base is almost fully behind him. They beleive his lies. Some of them tried to carry out his wishes to overturn an election. If in 2024 and 2028 the GOP base still believes and espouses his lies and it is believed that a coup is acceptable, then yes. He is the worst modern president. But right now, he pales in comparison to Woodrow Wilson.

Edit: and yes, at this point I still stand by my assertion that GWB was a worse president than Trump. Bush seemsnlike a good guy who just happened to open the gates of hell to bad governance and disastrous foreign policy.

We may have to just disagree. Trump just tried to take down our entire Constitutional system by refusing to accept the results of a presidential election and manipulating his devoted following to attack Congress with the aim of staying in power after having lost the election. It's unprecedented behavior for a US president and is hard for me to imagine how any other has done anything even close to that egregious. Yes, Bush made some bad decisions. But they at least were not made in bad faith. Trump through trying to sow mass distrust in the process of voting itself just for the sake of staying in power at any cost is the same thing others like Putin did in Russia or Chavez in Venezuela. Thankfully our institutions are stronger and also thank God for that heroic Capitol police officer who led the rioters away from an open door to the Senate chamber just in time. It's frightening to think how horrific this could have been. Trump isn't excused because he failed.

[Moliere]

When the Lincoln Project expanded its scope beyond simply ousting Trump it lost its way. I'm guessing that most of its $$$ are coming from democrats.

Lee needs to be primaried by someone with a high profile and reasonably popular. Huntsman would be fine. A wanker vs wanker primary. I would vote for the wanker who didn't compare Trump to Captain Moroni.

Also, Trump was much worse than GWB.

Based on them chasing Susan Collins, I think this is 100% correct. They gone from idealists to grifters kind of like John Dehlin.

[Moliere]

We may have to just disagree. Trump just tried to take down our entire Constitutional system by refusing to accept the results of a presidential election and manipulating his devoted following to attack Congress with the aim of staying in power after having lost the election. It's unprecedented behavior for a US president and is hard for me to imagine how any other has done anything even close to that egregious. Yes, Bush made some bad decisions. But they at least were not made in bad faith. Trump through trying to sow mass distrust in the process of voting itself just for the sake of staying in power at any cost is the same thing others like Putin did in Russia or Chavez in Venezuela. Thankfully our institutions are stronger and also thank God for that heroic Capitol police officer who led the rioters away from an open door to the Senate chamber just in time. It's frightening to think how horrific this could have been. Trump isn't excused because he failed.

It's possible that they are both horrible and in different ways so there's no way to compare

[USUC]

We may have to just disagree. Trump just tried to take down our entire Constitutional system by refusing to accept the results of a presidential election and manipulating his devoted following to attack Congress with the aim of staying in power after having lost the election. It's unprecedented behavior for a US president and is hard for me to imagine how any other has done anything even close to that egregious. Yes, Bush made some bad decisions. But they at least were not made in bad faith. Trump through trying to sow mass distrust in the process of voting itself just for the sake of staying in power at any cost is the same thing others like Putin did in Russia or Chavez in Venezuela. Thankfully our institutions are stronger and also thank God for that heroic Capitol police officer who led the rioters away from an open door to the Senate chamber just in time. It's frightening to think how horrific this could have been. Trump isn't excused because he failed.

Intentions are the criteria we should be using on judging the success or failure of a presidency? I agree that GWB had good intentions and Trump had bad intentions. But Trump didn't succeed at a coup while GWB did create the norm to govern via executive order while bypassing congress, he did get us into two wars without clear goals that led to the death many (one war we still are fighting 20 years later), his foreign policy led to mass disruptions in the middle east that led to ISIS, and he opened the floodgate of government spending that has spiraled out of control. But sure, Trump's intentions that didn't succeed make him the worse president in history. As an aside, I implore you to find a post on here of me praising Trump.

Anyway, get back to hating on Mike Lee everyone. I'm certainly not going to defend him. My initial point is that for a bunch of people who mock and judge the GOP base for falling for and supporting the Trump machine fraud sure are smitten with the Lincoln Project. Perhaps a little more self reflection is in order before beating their chests on their high horse.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Just read the SLTrib article. Mike Lee is lying about being the "top target". He is simply "a target".

Mike Lee lying again. Water is wet.

[wapiti]

Intentions are the criteria we should be using on judging the success or failure of a presidency? I agree that GWB had good intentions and Trump had bad intentions. But Trump didn't succeed at a coup while GWB did create the norm to govern via executive order while bypassing congress, he did get us into two wars without clear goals that led to the death many (one war we still are fighting 20 years later), his foreign policy led to mass disruptions in the middle east that led to ISIS, and he opened the floodgate of government spending that has spiraled out of control. But sure, Trump's intentions that didn't succeed make him the worse president in history. As an aside, I implore you to find a post on here of me praising Trump.

Anyway, get back to hating on Mike Lee everyone. I'm certainly not going to defend him. My initial point is that for a bunch of people who mock and judge the GOP base for falling for and supporting the Trump machine fraud sure are smitten with the Lincoln Project. Perhaps a little more self reflection is in order before beating their chests on their high horse.

Executive orders by president. https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/stat...ecutive-orders

Notables:

Wilson 1803
FDR 3721
Reagan 381
Clinton 364
GWB 294
Obama 276
Trump 220

Are you really arguing that GWB ushered in a new era of governing by EO?

[Pelado]

Executive orders by president. https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/stat...ecutive-orders

Notables:

Wilson 1803
FDR 3721
Reagan 381
Clinton 364
GWB 294
Obama 276
Trump 220

Are you really arguing that GWB ushered in a new era of governing by EO?

I'm not taking a side in this argument, but not all executive orders are equal. Some are clearly intended for administration of laws, whereas others are intended to make new law in the absence of legislation or, sometimes, in opposition to passed legislation. As such, counting the number of EOs doesn't necessarily determine who abused EOs the most.

Edit: As to that list - FDR served longer than anyone else and Trump "served" for less time than anyone else.

[Commando]

I'm not taking a side in this argument, but not all executive orders are equal. Some are clearly intended for administration of laws, whereas others are intended to make new law in the absence of legislation or, sometimes, in opposition to passed legislation. As such, counting the number of EOs doesn't necessarily determine who abused EOs the most.

Edit: As to that list - FDR served longer than anyone else and Trump "served" for less time than anyone else.

This is a great point. I laugh at the criticism leveled at Biden for all the EO's signed his first couple of weeks. Uhh.... he's trying to reverse all the shitty policy Trump rammed through over the course of his awful four years.

[wapiti]

This is a great point. I laugh at the criticism leveled at Biden for all the EO's signed his first couple of weeks. Uhh.... he's trying to reverse all the shitty policy Trump rammed through over the course of his awful four years.

Doesn't every president sign a bunch of executive orders as soon as they get into office? Especially the ones who replace a president from the opposite party? That criticism of Biden is just dumb.

[wapiti]

I'm not taking a side in this argument, but not all executive orders are equal. Some are clearly intended for administration of laws, whereas others are intended to make new law in the absence of legislation or, sometimes, in opposition to passed legislation. As such, counting the number of EOs doesn't necessarily determine who abused EOs the most.

Edit: As to that list - FDR served longer than anyone else and Trump "served" for less time than anyone else.

No doubt. I'm also guessing that Wilson and FDR having so many more EO's than the others has to do with WWI and WWII and war time powers they were given by congress.

I would love specifics on how GWB used the EO in unprecedented ways that now make him a terrible president.

[beefytee]

This is a great point. I laugh at the criticism leveled at Biden for all the EO's signed his first couple of weeks. Uhh.... he's trying to reverse all the shitty policy Trump rammed through over the course of his awful four years.

Doesn't every president sign a bunch of executive orders as soon as they get into office? Especially the ones who replace a president from the opposite party? That criticism of Biden is just dumb.

I don't remember anyone criticizing Biden for the EOs. Maybe there was someone. I expressed my distain for the process in general and the general way they are used.

I would love to see some limitations on what presidents are able to do with EOs.