Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[SeattleUte]

Disagree. I don’t know any democrat, and I’ve talked to more than anyone here, that would prefer a king/queen.

The GOP literally at their convention said, whatever Dear Leader says = our platform.

Look at the actions of the GOP chairperson, the state parties, POTUS, the senators/congressmen and women and you honestly tell me they don’t want a king right now.

Wrong. I've talked to democrats more than anyone here. I don't know any Republicans where I live.

[Now who’s the dean?]

I don't blame people for not believing this.

Outstanding

[Now who’s the dean?]

Wrong. I've talked to democrats more than anyone here. I don't know any Republicans where I live.

They’re probably all inside watching TV

[fusnik]

Wrong. I've talked to democrats more than anyone here. I don't know any Republicans where I live.

Talking to paid staff doesn’t count.

I’m talking real life relationships with folks that don’t have financial incentive to talk.

[Non Sequitur]

Do you think I’m lying? I assure you I am not. And there are smarter people than me who think the same, and they’re no friends of trump either.

What about the flip side—why do you think he intended this to happen? The plan, to the extent there was one, was to encourage republicans to refuse to certify the electoral college vote. They could hardly do that if they had all fled the building in terror.

The logic and evidence points to something else altogether: he didn’t give a thought or a fig on what would happen if he sent an angry mob down Pennsylvania Avenue. It was, as someone else suggested in this thread, an act of wanton recklessness.

I think I would respect your position more if I thought you were lying.

[All-American]

I think I would respect your position more if I thought you were lying.

What, so you DON’T think he should be convicted? Because my position is that he should be.

[Non Sequitur]

What, so you DON’T think he should be convicted? Because my position is that he should be.

That's not the position to which I referred. I'm talking about your assertion that Trump didn't intend the Capitol to be breached because that would undercut some kind of grand plan. Trump's M.O. always has been and always will be to provoke chaos. The more chaos the better. If it wasn't in Trump's plan for his supporters to breach the Capitol, he would have acted to end it rather than revel in it.

[All-American]

That's not the position to which I referred. I'm talking about your assertion that Trump didn't intend the Capitol to be breached because that would undercut some kind of grand plan. Trump's M.O. always has been and always will be to provoke chaos. The more chaos the better. If it wasn't in Trump's plan for his supporters to breach the Capitol, he would have acted to end it rather than revel in it.

So he must have intended it, not in spite of the fact that it was pointless, but specifically because of the fact it was pointless?

I mean, look, let’s not get carried away thinking the guy ever had a particularly close relationship with logic. But nothing he was trying to do was advanced by the incident. Quite the opposite: he actually had to walk back, as much as he was capable of doing so, and finally conceded that there would be a transition of power.

The case that he truly intended for this to happen is not particularly strong. It smacks of recklessness, though.

[Non Sequitur]

So he must have intended it, not in spite of the fact that it was pointless, but specifically because of the fact it was pointless?

I mean, look, let’s not get carried away thinking the guy ever had a particularly close relationship with logic. But nothing he was trying to do was advanced by the incident. Quite the opposite: he actually had to walk back, as much as he was capable of doing so, and finally conceded that there would be a transition of power.

The case that he truly intended for this to happen is not particularly strong. It smacks of recklessness, though.

What do you suppose Trump hoped the outcome would be as he was riling up his supporters and imploring them to march to the Capitol? He wanted the vote stopped. How does merely having his supporters mingle outside the capitol waving flags and chanting accomplish that? If Trump didn't think there would be violence at the capitol, he would have kept his promise and joined the protestors at the capitol. Trump didn't follow his supporters to the capitol because he knew the capitol was not going to be a safe place to be.

[Copelius]

If this doesn’t merit impeachment and conviction, I’m not sure what does.

I don't disagree that his actions were reprehensible and have no place in the pantheon of presidential actions. I also think that impeachment and conviction could be had if done right. However, this country is built on the rule of law and prosecutors from the lowest township to the House of Representatives should be held to the standard of proving what they charge and not being bailed out just because the accused is obviously guilty of something other than the charged offense.

Where is the intent. Incitement is a specific intent crime in any jurisdiction. As AA says, Trump was totally reckless, which is the mens rea for a multitude of high crimes or misdemeanors with which the House could have charged him. But instead they chose to charge him with a specific intent crime. I don't think impeachment includes lesser included offenses. Its like the house managers are asking the Senate to convict of murder but are presenting the elements of manslaughter. Reckless endangerment or something similar is a misdemeanor in any jurisdiction of the country. Had the House sent up an article of reckless endangerment, I would most likely be right there supporting conviction. But the House chose a specific intent charge and that is what evidence the mangers have to show. I don't believe they have.

I don't have an issue with a conviction based on the elements of the charge but to issue a charge and then ask to convict on elements not amounting to it is anathema to the American justice system even if impeachment is inherently political.

[Copelius]

I don't agree with everything fus has said about this, but I agree with a lot, and I definitely I agree with this.

Let me preface this by saying that I definitely do NOT think that Trump is Hitler. The point of this post has nothing to do with comparing Trump to Hitler, but comparing how people reacted to what they said.

After the war, a lot of Germans said things like "We didn't know he would do those things". This was pretty much BS, as Hitler was actually pretty explicit on what he would do in Mein Kampf and other speeches and writings. He always said the Germans needed lebensraum in Eastern Europe. He always said they needed to take it by force. He always said that the Jews were sub-human. He said a lot of things that your average 1930 German would have found distasteful and would not vote for as a line item. But they used the excuse that he didn't really mean these things, that he was using hyperbole. They convinced themselves of this because he accomplished things that they wanted accomplished. He beat off the Communists and the Trade Unions. He built up German military. It was almost literally the 1930s equivalence of "But he nominates good judges".

Again, Trump is not Hitler, but like Hitler, as fus said, there are a large number of people who discount what he says ("oh, he just likes to tweet weird stuff") because they like the results.

Even scarier, there are a growing number of people who agree with his actual words.

Now we know how he was able to get so many followers. Kind of explains the Nazi salute too.

[All-American]

What do you suppose Trump hoped the outcome would be as he was riling up his supporters and imploring them to march to the Capitol? He wanted the vote stopped. How does merely having his supporters mingle outside the capitol waving flags and chanting accomplish that? If Trump didn't think there would be violence at the capitol, he would have kept his promise and joined the protestors at the capitol. Trump didn't follow his supporters to the capitol because he knew the capitol was not going to be a safe place to be.

I don’t think he wanted the vote stopped at all. I think he wanted it to proceed, but to vote not to certify the results.

The point about him not physically going to the Capitol also cuts the other way. Maybe he thought he would go, but then violence broke out and he didn’t.

Here, again, there is a much better case to be made that he simply gave no thought to the consequences of his actions. That’s a classic case of recklessness.

[BlueK]

What's with Nikki Haley last week basically screaming at the Democrats that they needed to get over what Trump did and move on but now she's saying she can't believe what he did to Mike Pence and he disgusts her. I don’t know how she couldn't have known what he did to Pence when she made her first statement.

[Bo Diddley]

What's with Nikki Haley last week basically screaming at the Democrats that they needed to get over what Trump did and move on but now she's saying she can't believe what he did to Mike Pence and he disgusts her. I don’t know how she couldn't have known what he did to Pence when she made her first statement.

Don't be surprised to find she's testing the waters for a presidential run next election cycle.

[BlueK]

Don't be surprised to find she's testing the waters for a presidential run next election cycle.

Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. Are you saying she was trying to measure the reaction from both sides by forcefully throwing out two opposite opinions of the same event in the same week?