Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[All-American]

This cuts both ways though. Not holding a president accountable because of legal technicalities and procedures has as much danger of emboldening future presidents to act as recklessly as Trump did.

The one thing we can all seem to agree on though is that the democrats are finding a way to screw this up.

To me, that's why it was important to present the best case possible, including attention on what he did after the breach occurred. I don't think democrats are trying to convict him. I think they are trying to hit the sweet spot of throwing as much mud at Trump as they can without forcing any republicans to take a position against him. After all, they get to run against these same republicans in the next election. Goodness knows I'd rather run against the guy that wouldn't convict the insurrectionists.

[Northwestcoug]

This whole sorry episode has made me more of a fan of parliamentary democracy, if that was possible. The executive branch should have less power, and the US is trending the other way. Trump is not going to be convicted, thus raising the bar on what constitutes impeachable offenses. And a Trump-like character is almost guaranteed to come to power in the future, if not Trump himself. And similar behavior will be tolerated. The leader of a country should be more easily removed between elections. Votes of confidence should always hang over the head of a president/prime minister as an added check on abuse of power.

[fusnik]

I'm not convinced you actually read anything I say, other than two or three words.

I read everything.

I’m not convinced Trump intended this!
It’s not unreasonable to vote to acquit!
I’m afraid about precedent!
Democrats didn’t include all the real arguments!
Look at what my highly respected mentor said!
We need to proceed with solemn caution!

Your takes are bad. I’ve said it before you are one of the smartest people here which means you are literally one of the smartest people in the world, having said that, your moral compass is up Trumps ass.

[fusnik]

This whole sorry episode has made me more of a fan of parliamentary democracy, if that was possible. The executive branch should have less power, and the US is trending the other way. Trump is not going to be convicted, thus raising the bar on what constitutes impeachable offenses. And a Trump-like character is almost guaranteed to come to power in the future, if not Trump himself. And similar behavior will be tolerated. The leader of a country should be more easily removed between elections. Votes of confidence should always hang over the head of a president/prime minister as an added check on abuse of power.

Parliamentary government isn’t the solution, our government as constituted isn’t the problem.

The problem is the GOP has become anti-democratic.

Look at the judicial system and what the GOP has done with it over the last 6 years.

[BlueK]

And here, again, we're just not going to be on the same page. To me, you can't play fast and loose when you are talking about removing the executive from power. The process should be handled with solemnity and caution, recognizing that its use poses a danger in its own right and knowing that the next time it is invoked it may well be for less cause than the first.

It has not been fast and loose. It's impossible to meet any standard most Republican senators would have been looking for.

[Now who’s the dean?]

I don't believe Trump intended for people to breach the building.

I honestly don’t know what to say to that.

[BlueK]

This whole sorry episode has made me more of a fan of parliamentary democracy, if that was possible. The executive branch should have less power, and the US is trending the other way. Trump is not going to be convicted, thus raising the bar on what constitutes impeachable offenses. And a Trump-like character is almost guaranteed to come to power in the future, if not Trump himself. And similar behavior will be tolerated. The leader of a country should be more easily removed between elections. Votes of confidence should always hang over the head of a president/prime minister as an added check on abuse of power.

Right now the Republicans are the party that prefers an executive with nearly unlimited power if it's their guy. I say "nearly" but as yet we haven't seen where their limit is. They could not stand more opposite right now to what the founders intended.

Call it wishful thinking if you want, but I don't think they're gauging the public accurately right now. nearly 60% of the public agrees that Trump needs to be convicted. The Republicans have been led by their former leader to play only to the extremes of their base and are gliding completely oblivious to the electoral shellacking they're about to get in the next election. Yes, I know the history of a new president's first midterm, but this will be an exception, IMO, like it was for Bush in 2002. In the senate the GOP has to defend a lot more seats than the dems do and every seat defended by the dems is in a state Biden won. Plus, more information about Trump's abuses are going to keep coming out. The GOP is full of clowns right now.who don't realize they've completely lost the middle of the political spectrum.

[All-American]

I read everything.

I’m not convinced Trump intended this!
It’s not unreasonable to vote to acquit!
I’m afraid about precedent!
Democrats didn’t include all the real arguments!
Look at what my highly respected mentor said!
We need to proceed with solemn caution!

Your takes are bad. I’ve said it before you are one of the smartest people here which means you are literally one of the smartest people in the world, having said that, your moral compass is up Trumps ass.

I very much look forward to buying you lunch one of these days. I really look forward to understanding you better.


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[BlueK]

This cuts both ways though. Not holding a president accountable because of legal technicalities and procedures has as much danger of emboldening future presidents to act as recklessly as Trump did.

The one thing we can all seem to agree on though is that the democrats are finding a way to screw this up.

I don't think they screwed it up. I thought their case was very compelling. It could have been wrapped up in less than 16 hours, but that's minor. The fact they will have gotten ANY Republican votes is a testament to having done a pretty good job. I mean we're talking convincing a few more than just one Mitt Romney when we know how far into Trump's you know what their heads have been for four years. This impeachment had to be done given the egregiousness of what Trump did, regardless of whether he's convicted or not. They had no choice to get it all on the historical record. I almost feel bad for those Republican senators and the legacy they will now own for siding with the instigator of a coup attempt. It will not be pretty for the GOP in the longterm even if they don't know how to look past the next election right now. And even that I think they are misreading.

[BlueK]

Parliamentary government isn’t the solution, our government as constituted isn’t the problem.

The problem is the GOP has become anti-democratic.

Look at the judicial system and what the GOP has done with it over the last 6 years.

Ask a room full of standard Republicans to choose one of the two options below

1. The US continues on as a Constitutional representative democracy as it has for the last 250 years with free elections even if your side starts to lose 60% of them

Or.

2. We start all over with a new system where the Republicans are always in charge and elections done away with

Most of them would choose #2 today. This is sadly not just a hypothetical. The party apparatus is actively pursuing that direction and will take it as far as possible.

[All-American]

I honestly don’t know what to say to that.

Do you think I’m lying? I assure you I am not. And there are smarter people than me who think the same, and they’re no friends of trump either.

What about the flip side—why do you think he intended this to happen? The plan, to the extent there was one, was to encourage republicans to refuse to certify the electoral college vote. They could hardly do that if they had all fled the building in terror.

The logic and evidence points to something else altogether: he didn’t give a thought or a fig on what would happen if he sent an angry mob down Pennsylvania Avenue. It was, as someone else suggested in this thread, an act of wanton recklessness.

[Moliere]

What was the plan for the insurrection? I guess that what I am not understanding. So the mob gets into the capital (clearly most of them were just sheep following along and having fun) and certain people were supposed to do what?

Kill Pence? What would that result in? He’s a lame duck and Biden would still be sworn in.

Kill Pelosi? I don’t think that accomplishes anything for Trump.

Hold congress hostage? Um, public sentiment is already wholly against the riot, can you imagine how bad Trumps approval would be in that situation? Yikes.

Delay the vote counting? That’s just delaying the inevitable and Biden is still sworn in as president.

I guess I don’t see the plausible endgame that results in trump being president at the end of all of this even if it did go further. Someone help me out here since I don’t frequent 4chan so I don’t know the plans.

Oh, and I’d vote to impeach as well.


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[Northwestcoug]

Parliamentary government isn’t the solution, our government as constituted isn’t the problem.

The problem is the GOP has become anti-democratic.

Look at the judicial system and what the GOP has done with it over the last 6 years.

Sure now. But you are kidding yourself if you think the slide to more executive power and abuse won't happen on a democrat's watch also. Not too many people except principled libertarians have cared much about the increasing power of the executive, just because we've never had someone like Trump in our lifetimes. But a future democrat president will surely be tempted to abuse power, because we haven't cared that it's been done beforehand by people who are at least somewhat moral.

[BlueK]

Sure now. But you are kidding yourself if you think the slide to more executive power and abuse won't happen on a democrat's watch also. Not too many people except principled libertarians have cared much about the increasing power of the executive, just because we've never had someone like Trump in our lifetimes. But a future democrat president will surely be tempted to abuse power, because we haven't cared that it's been done beforehand by people who are at least somewhat moral.

I think you're not wrong. But the Republicans are much farther down that road right now and the Democrats are not currently anti-democracy.

[All-American]

I think you're not wrong. But the Republicans are much farther down that road right now and the Democrats are not currently anti-democracy.

Republicans get to bear the dubious distinction of having made the latest escalation. And it was a significant one at that.