Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[Northwestcoug]

I'm not trying to prove that the allegations are true or false. I'm just trying to understand both sides of the issue.

Got it. Yeah, I think your post above captures the allegation well.

[BlueK]

Thanks for posting the article, it is actually what got me thinking about this.

As I read more about it, it appears that the allegations are that Biden was worried his son was going to be prosecuted by Ukraine (for something), and threatened to withhold $1B in aid unless Ukraine fired the prosecutor, which they did. Biden says the prosecutor was corrupt, and that Biden's role in Ukraine was to try and help weed out corruption.

Am I missing anything?

even if there is something legitimate to be investigated, it's troubling that this president has no respect for the idea of independence of the justice dept. The norms are in place to protect us from a justice dept doing its work for purely political reasons. I don't think anyone would disagree that Trump wants it to work like his own personal law office. Rudy Giuliani should have nothing to do with any investigations of the federal government. He's the president's personal "lawyer," which to Trump is basically a PR guy.

[BlueK]

There is also the whistleblower complaint being delivered to the Senate Intelligence Committee shortly with the entire Senate receiving it tomorrow. It may also involve other topics separate from this particular call.

[imanihonjin]

Honestly, I'm astonished if you're seriously asking this question. Though both instances can be unethical, going to an outside country to spy/dig up dirt on a political opponent is a whole 'nother level of bad. Set aside the massive opportunity for that country to blackmail the president in the future for their own interests. But just the thought of a president colluding with an outside country to affect the outcome of elections? Really?!? You can't make that judgement call?

Um, you said a lot of things but I don't really think you made much of a case. Blackmail will exist whether an outside country is involved or not and while the language you used here, "just the thought of a president colluding with an outside country to affect the outcome of elections? Really?!? You can't make that judgement call?", is wonderfully colorful language, it doesn't really state anything other than your outrage.

Using the tools of the american government against a political opponent is just as dangerous and just as "bad". I would think that most Americans are far more fearful of what the American government can be used to do to harm them, than they are concerned about what the Ukrainian government can do to harm them.

[imanihonjin]

Oh you mean these super serious, totally substantiated allegations?

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/03/...apping-phones/

Yeah, sorry, snopes is worthless in the political arena.

[falafel]

even if there is something legitimate to be investigated, it's troubling that this president has no respect for the idea of independence of the justice dept. The norms are in place to protect us from a justice dept doing its work for purely political reasons. I don't think anyone would disagree that Trump wants it to work like his own personal law office. Rudy Giuliani should have nothing to do with any investigations of the federal government. He's the president's personal "lawyer," which to Trump is basically a PR guy.

I agree that Guilliani has no business being anywhere around this. And I agree that the DOJ shouldn't operate for purely political reasons.

Regarding the DOJ, that's an executive branch agency, and the President is the head of the Executive Branch. Is it odd that he would direct DOJ investigations sometimes? Or direct the DOJ to open an investigation into something?

[BlueK]

Regarding the DOJ, that's an executive branch agency, and the President is the head of the Executive Branch. Is it odd that he would direct DOJ investigations sometimes? Or direct the DOJ to open an investigation into something?

it has not been normal in the past for the president to direct the DOJ to investigate individuals.

[falafel]

it has not been normal in the past for the president to direct the DOJ to investigate individuals.

Really? How do you know?

[BlueK]

Really? How do you know?

The independence of that department has been pretty long established, hasn't it? Isn't that exactly what that means? How is it not tyrannical for a president to be able to use the tools of that department to go after political opponents?

[falafel]

The independence of that department has been pretty long established, hasn't it? Isn't that exactly what that means?

I don't know. If President Obama said "Eric Holder, I want you to open an investigation into [private citizen] because I've heard rumors and seen some limited evidence that he's breaking the law," I would expect Eric Holder to do it and I don't think I'd have any problem with it.

I'm not suggesting that is the exact situation with the Bidens, I'm just trying to sort out which are the big issues and which are not.

[Northwestcoug]

Um, you said a lot of things but I don't really think you made much of a case. Blackmail will exist whether an outside country is involved or not and while the language you used here, "just the thought of a president colluding with an outside country to affect the outcome of elections? Really?!? You can't make that judgement call?", is wonderfully colorful language, it doesn't really state anything other than your outrage.

Using the tools of the american government against a political opponent is just as dangerous and just as "bad". I would think that most Americans are far more fearful of what the American government can be used to do to harm them, than they are concerned about what the Ukrainian government can do to harm them.

Before we go any farther, do tell if you're comparing a hypothetical domestic spying case to Trump's continued election interference, or if it's that nebulous Obama story that I can't remember. If the latter, I'm going to snopes fact-check your ass!

[BlueK]

I don't know. If President Obama said "Eric Holder, I want you to open an investigation into [private citizen] because I've heard rumors and seen some limited evidence that he's breaking the law," I would expect Eric Holder to do it and I don't think I'd have any problem with it.

I'm not suggesting that is the exact situation with the Bidens, I'm just trying to sort out which are the big issues and which are not.

It's one thing for the president to try to set the tone by telling the AG he really thinks it's important to go after organized crime, or fraud or drugs, or something like that.

It's a completely different thing when it reaches to telling them to go after a specific political opponent. That's ridiculous and scary when it comes to considering what that implies for individual liberty. To me, it's crazy we're even considering that it would be ok for a president to use his power for that.

[imanihonjin]

Before we go any farther, do tell if you're comparing a hypothetical domestic spying case to Trump's continued election interference, or if it's that nebulous Obama story that I can't remember. If the latter, I'm going to snopes fact-check your ass!

You mean the same snopes that does hard hitting fact checking cases like fact checking satire from the babylon bee?

[Northwestcoug]

You mean the same snopes that does hard hitting fact checking cases like fact checking satire from the babylon bee?

Oh yeah! I swear by it!

[imanihonjin]

Oh yeah! I swear by it!

That sucks for you.