On abortion

[frank ryan]

#whatabouttrump

You don't find the logic in that quote tortured at best?

I don’t find concerns about these abortions laws leading to back alley procedures tortured logic. Also, I don’t see this debate as cut and dry as everyone else. I don’t like abortion and I’m glad none of us get pregnant.
Yeah, I engaged in some whataboutism I suppose, but it’s relevant stuff in wapiti’s case.

[MartyFunkhouser]

#whatabouttrump

You don't find the logic in that quote tortured at best?

No I don't find the logic in the quote tortured at best. I am willing to look at this issue and these moral questions with more nuance than that.

You want to know how to really reduce abortion? Do what Colorado did with the IUD program. That had great results in reducing abortions and reducing suffering of children born to someone who is unprepared for that child. Of course, the people that are usually screaming abortion is murder don't want those sluty sluts having access to birth control, so that approach is out.

I'll believe this is about the sanctity of human life, when people pushing these types of laws also expand the safety net for families that unprepared for a child and put legislation in effect to limit the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

As much as I don't like Mia Love, I at least had respect for her when she gave her speech opposing abortion and indicated how we need to increase access to birth control. Every state should be following Colorado's IUD program.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No I don't find the logic in the quote tortured at best. I am willing to look at this issue and these moral questions with more nuance than that.

You condone hyperbole because you support nuance? Ok...

But it is the children I have to come back to, my children Elisabeth, Caroline, Theodore, my joy, my pride, my loves. If I had not broken the law and aborted that life nobody wanted, they would have been aborted by a cruel, bigoted, and senseless law. They would never have been born. This thought I cannot bear.

Yes of course, people were just trying to abort her future kids. I guess by this logic, when my wife and I decided to stop at 4 kids, we aborted several future kids.

I support choice under quite a few circumstances, but this line of reasoning is not very compelling. The tough thing about abortions for convenience is that is leads to this kind of moral rationalization/calculus where one argues why college, etc are more valuable than a human life.

[MartyFunkhouser]

You condone hyperbole because you support nuance? Ok...



Yes of course, people were just trying to abort her future kids. I guess by this logic, when my wife and I decided to stop at 4 kids, we aborted several future kids.

I support choice under quite a few circumstances, but this line of reasoning is not very compelling. The tough thing about abortions for convenience is that is leads to this kind of moral rationalization/calculus where one argues why college, etc are more valuable than a human life.

I'll agree with using the term "aborted" by the law with her future children is over the top and hyperbolic. However, the point that had she had the child it would have potentially led to her not having any future children is absolutely a legitimate point.

No law is really going to eliminate abortions for convenience, they will continue to happen even if outlawed. You want to prevent abortions for convenience teach sex ed and make contraception available and cheap. Colorado reduced the teen birth rate by 54% and the abortion rate by 64%. Start there, not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'll agree with using the term "aborted" by the law with her future children is over the top and hyperbolic. However, the point that had she had the child it would have potentially led to her not having any future children is absolutely a legitimate point.

Having one child prevents all future children? Sorry, not buying that.

Funk it is possible to support choice without having to justify/rationalize every choice.

No law is really going to eliminate abortions for convenience, they will continue to happen even if outlawed. You want to prevent abortions for convenience teach sex ed and make contraception available and cheap. Colorado reduced the teen birth rate by 54% and the abortion rate by 64%. Start there, not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade

I agree.

[Northwestcoug]

I am one whose life has been intimately touched by adoption and by mothers who chose life. For this mother to repeatedly refer to the aborted child as the "unwanted one" while referring to the three named children as "my joy, my pride, my loves" literally made me sick and angry. The "unwanted one" should have a name and should also be a parent's joy, pride, and love. Maybe it's more complex than that. But that's my worldview.

I understand your emotion. It is completely valid.

I appreciate LeGuin's words because they frame the decision to have an abortion in less passionate terms. I don't know what emotions she went through when she had hers (she made these remarks near the end of her life), but in retrospect she is weighing the decisions in her life and making a judgement call. She finished her degree, became a successful writer, and had her family. At least two of those would absolutely be in doubt had her circumstances been any different. And for not a few women currently, unwanted pregnancies can do the same.

I strongly believe that there is always an emotional cost for a decision to have an abortion. For some, it is too much. For many, the cost is still there, but it is outweighed by the good of a potential future. For LeGuin, the cold calculus was that her three children (more specifically their family life and situation) and a career outweighed one potential life.

[Paperback Writer]

I understand your emotion. It is completely valid.

I appreciate LeGuin's words because they frame the decision to have an abortion in less passionate terms. I don't know what emotions she went through when she had hers (she made these remarks near the end of her life), but in retrospect she is weighing the decisions in her life and making a judgement call. She finished her degree, became a successful writer, and had her family. At least two of those would absolutely be in doubt had her circumstances been any different. And for not a few women currently, unwanted pregnancies can do the same.

I strongly believe that there is always an emotional cost for a decision to have an abortion. For some, it is too much. For many, the cost is still there, but it is outweighed by the good of a potential future. For LeGuin, the cold calculus was that her three children (more specifically their family life and situation) and a career outweighed one potential life.

Wasn't adoption an option? Have the child, give the child up for adoption, go back to college. There's a good chance she still would have met her future husband, had three additional children, and her career. I realize there is an emotional cost with giving up a child for adoption as well as having an abortion. In my view, that is the "cold calculus".

[Northwestcoug]

Wasn't adoption an option? Have the child, give the child up for adoption, go back to college. There's a good chance she still would have met her future husband, had three additional children, and her career. I realize there is an emotional cost with giving up a child for adoption as well as having an abortion. In my view, that is the "cold calculus".

Sure, adoption is always an option, and I assume it was for her. I think it needs to be considered in most cases of unwanted pregnancies. But that doesn't mean adoption is the best option for everyone. I don't believe it is.

[frank ryan]

Having one child prevents all future children? Sorry, not buying that.

Funk it is possible to support choice without having to justify/rationalize every choice.



I agree.

Access to contraception (which believe it or not planned parenthood is good at) and effective social programs, with financial literacy attached to it, for the most commonly impacted poor populations would really make a huge difference. I don’t know many people who want more not less abortions. But enacting laws that make it more criminal than rape are not good faith efforts of addressing the issue.

[Soccermom]

Yep the euphemisms around abortion are ridiculous: women have a right to “control their reproductive lives” etc.

I personally believe that abortion should be legal through first trimester without restriction because I don’t want the government to be an arbiter of whether or not there has been a rape or whether there is a significant health challenge. But let’s call it killing an unborn baby and throwing it in the garbage. SJBH.

I agree with you.

[frank ryan]

Yep the euphemisms around abortion are ridiculous: women have a right to “control their reproductive lives” etc.

I personally believe that abortion should be legal through first trimester without restriction because I don’t want the government to be an arbiter of whether or not there has been a rape or whether there is a significant health challenge. But let’s call it killing an unborn baby and throwing it in the garbage. SJBH.

You're pretty spot with some of these points. Logistically, would there be some Alabam comission on rape that would decide if a woman's claim was valid or not? Abortion is going to remain a loaded-term. That's not changing anytime soon.

[Commando]

You're pretty spot with some of these points. Logistically, would there be some Alabam comission on rape that would decide if a woman's claim was valid or not? Abortion is going to remain a loaded-term. That's not changing anytime soon.

No need! If the rape is the real deal, the body has an internal mechanism to shut that down.

[Sullyute]

No need! If the rape is the real deal, the body has an internal mechanism to shut that down.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I think Politico is pretty reliable, but this is hard to believe. Per that website, a draft opinion written by Alito and joined in by at least four others will be released within the next couple of months overturning Roe v. Wade. If true, this would be a very disturbing and unprecedented leak, would have a profound effect on the mid-terms, and might revive the stupid idea of court-packing. Anyone seen confirmation of this story?

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think Politico is pretty reliable, but this is hard to believe. Per that website, a draft opinion written by Alito and joined in by at least four others will be released within the next couple of months overturning Roe v. Wade. If true, this would be a very disturbing and unprecedented leak, would have a profound effect on the mid-terms, and might revive the stupid idea of court-packing. Anyone seen confirmation of this story?

That is very disturbing that there would be that type of leak. It is also very disturbing that the court would overturn Roe v. Wade.