Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[Bo Diddley]

I heard the Crimea part from an interview with the former US ambassador to Russia. I hadn't heard that before. Obama flubbed that one.

Clearly Putin's idea with the troops on the border was to scare Ukraine to where they decide not to fight, get NATO to argue amongst themselves and let Russia walk in and take some territory. Looks like Putin failed but you will hear a different story on Fox probably.

Yeah, I don't ever read Fox or CNN anymore. I use BBC, AP and Reuters.

[BlueK]

Yeah, I don't ever read Fox or CNN anymore. I use BBC, AP and Reuters.

I don't like the CNN opinion guys much but the actual news is the same as the other sources you mention. They may analyze it in a certain way which I may or may not always completely agree with. Fox on the other hand gives a completely different set of "facts" often very close to what state run Russian media is saying.

[Bo Diddley]

I don't like the CNN opinion guys much but the actual news is the same as the other sources you mention. They may analyze it in a certain way which I may or may not always completely agree with. Fox on the other hand gives a completely different set of "facts" often very close to what state run Russian media is saying.

It's not difficult to see the left bias in how they present the news from the way they write the headlines to which stories they run and how they prioritize them on their site. It's not just opinion pieces.

[Goatnapper'96]

Russia starts to pull some troops out. But don't worry. It doesn't mean anything, they are still doing their drills!

I think Putin is looking for the off ramp. Maybe he finally found it. We'll see.

I heard something the other day that made a lot of sense. In 2014 when Russia quietly moved into Crimea and then announced it was now part of Russia, the US knew all along what they were doing but for whatever reasons chose to keep their intelligence secret. It played into Putin's hands. But this time the US instead chose to continually release classified info about Russian activity, much of which the Russians probably didn't know we had, forcing them to keep denying they were about to invade.

Putin is all about wanting to look scary and powerful but also saving face. Pretty sure he miscalculated here. His last desire would have been for more NATO troops in Eastern Europe, more weapons for Ukraine and for NATO to unite. He painted himself into a corner where he either gets a disastrous war for himself or looks like blinked.

I think nobody really made a fuss about the Crimea because the Crimea territory was part of Russia for most of history. During the Soviet Union years Kruschev moved Crimea from Russia to Ukraine and this just undid that unnatural border.

I am not sure what agreements have been made but I tend to agree that for Russia to invade Ukraine would have been a huge blunder and at some point Putin realized that while it was unlikely the West/NATO would directly engage him with combat troops in Ukraine there was enough resolve to aid Ukraine that it would have been very costly and painful for Russia.

Kudos to Biden et all if it works out that way in the end.

[Eddie]

I caught some article on Reddit this morning with quotes from Putin essentially saying that he is laughing at the US, Britain, and the west for making fools of themselves and over-reacting to what was simply some troop exercises. If that's Putin's face saving exit from this venture, I'll take it. He can laugh and say he made us look silly all he wants if it means he isn't going to invade Ukraine.

[falafel]

I caught some article on Reddit this morning with quotes from Putin essentially saying that he is laughing at the US, Britain, and the west for making fools of themselves and over-reacting to what was simply some troop exercises. If that's Putin's face saving exit from this venture, I'll take it. He can laugh and say he made us look silly all he wants if it means he isn't going to invade Ukraine.

That's a Ted-level attempt at reversal.

[BlueK]

I think nobody really made a fuss about the Crimea because the Crimea territory was part of Russia for most of history. During the Soviet Union years Kruschev moved Crimea from Russia to Ukraine and this just undid that unnatural border.

I am not sure what agreements have been made but I tend to agree that for Russia to invade Ukraine would have been a huge blunder and at some point Putin realized that while it was unlikely the West/NATO would directly engage him with combat troops in Ukraine there was enough resolve to aid Ukraine that it would have been very costly and painful for Russia.

Kudos to Biden et all if it works out that way in the end.

I don't know, they made enough of a fuss to slap some sanctions on them that were painful enough to get the Russians to lobby the Trump campaign pretty hard in the hopes of getting them removed should Trump win. Then Trump never gave up on trying to get them removed until he did, despite some pretty heavy opposition from Congress for a while.

[BlueK]

That's a Ted-level attempt at reversal.

And an argument ready to hit the Tucker Carlson show in 3, 2, 1....

Seems perfect for his audience as they eat up any bit of Russian propaganda no matter how stupid.

[BlueK]

Apparently in his speech to the Russians tonight Putin basically made the argument that Ukraine shouldn't be a separate country. Here we go.

[Moliere]

Apparently in his speech to the Russians tonight Putin basically made the argument that Ukraine shouldn't be a separate country. Here we go.

I’m certainly no expert, but I’ve always thought the east half of the Ukraine sympathizes a lot with Russian. My BiL served his mission in Donetsk and was Russian speaking. I’m not justifying what Putin is doing but it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s some support within those regions of the Ukraine for annexation to Russia.

Lets hope Biden is better at foreign policy than he is as domestic policy.

[BlueK]

I’m certainly no expert, but I’ve always thought the east half of the Ukraine sympathizes a lot with Russian. My BiL served his mission in Donetsk and was Russian speaking. I’m not justifying what Putin is doing but it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s some support within those regions of the Ukraine for annexation to Russia.

Lets hope Biden is better at foreign policy than he is as domestic policy.

Yes, a small, far eastern part of Ukraine has a lot of people who feel connected to Russia. That's going to be Putin's excuse for getting involved in Ukraine. But in the past Putin has also said the entire country of Ukraine goes together with Russia and shouldn't be separate. He's possibly ok with a Ukraine that is aligned with Russia but not if they go democratic which is what they're seemingly trying to do. It's only a matter of time.

[Northwestcoug]

I did not have WWIII on my 2022 bingo card.

[PaloAltoCougar]

It's true that southeastern Ukraine has supported Russia-leaning candidates in past elections more than has the larger western part of Ukraine. However, when polled whether they would support reunification with Russia, even those in the southeast oppose such a move (most of that area is "Russia-ambivalent," not pro-Russian). One of the reasons southeast Ukraine leans a bit more toward Russia is Stalin's ethnic cleansing of that area-- the famine, genocide and exportation of the ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars reduced significantly the number of those who would naturally oppose the Russians.

[Pelado]

It's true that southeastern Ukraine has supported Russia-leaning candidates in past elections more than has the larger western part of Ukraine. However, when polled whether they would support reunification with Russia, even those in the southeast oppose such a move (most of that area is "Russia-ambivalent," not pro-Russian). One of the reasons southeast Ukraine leans a bit more toward Russia is Stalin's ethnic cleansing of that area-- the famine, genocide and exportation of the ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars reduced significantly the number of those who would naturally oppose the Russians.

And now it's Putin's turn.

[BlueK]

Putin has famously said that the worst thing that has happened to his country is the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He's moving into Ukraine soon enough.