The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[Uncle Ted]

I agree he is most likely unelectable. But he is interesting.

So Bernie wasn't elected to the US Senate? I am starting to wonder how they do things up there in Vermont.

[imanihonjin]

Or simply use the money to pay out to institutional investors and to reward CEO with huge bonuses even when the stock is doing poorly. It is not true that the blue ribbon plutarchs use money in a fashion that "trickles" down. The plutarchs keep it in the family. I am arguing for a method than helps it circulate better without government intervention. We need small business loan incentives, more than is currently being done.

So what do the institutional investors and CEOs do with the money? Surely they don't hide it in a safe or under their mattresses.

[pellegrino]

So what do the institutional investors and CEOs do with the money? Surely they don't hide it in a safe or under their mattresses.

that's a disingenuous question. You, capitalist should have that answer down pat.

[old_gregg]

that's a disingenuous question. You, capitalist should have that answer down pat.

pay academics' pensions, for one

[Jeff Lebowski]

So Bernie wasn't elected to the US Senate? I am starting to wonder how they do things up there in Vermont.

Let me explain: He is running for president. So when I say "electable", I am referring to the 2016 presidential election.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That really is his answer. The wealthy will pay for it. I believe those were his exact words with respect to, for example, how he would make college free for everybody.

Ah great. Another smartass answer.

[imanihonjin]

that's a disingenuous question. You, capitalist should have that answer down pat.

It isn't disingenuous at all. Topper stated that the problem with the wealth distribution is that money is not circulated (I have no idea what this even means, but I choose to play along). I am simply asking questions to determine how this could be. There are very few ways of taking money out of "circulation" and the larger the amount of money the more difficult it is to take it out of circulation. Topper seems to believe it is possible, so I would like to better understand why he believes that way.

[BlueK]

I think it's pretty self-evident. We live in a capitalist country. The way to succeed in almost all aspects of American life is to make money. For many reasons, poor people can't make a lot of money. One of those reasons is that the practical availability of wealth (I keep hearing this zero-sum game issue with wealth; I honestly don't understand the concept) is out of reach for quite a few people. It is at least a part of the problem why a lot of the poor cannot succeed in America.

I am probably more sympathetic toward the less privileged than many other libertarian or conservative folks because I actually grew up dirt poor (by US standards) and from a so-called "broken" home. It was my mom with me and my two siblings. We struggled to pay rent and sometimes didn't know where the money would come from to pay the electric bill or buy food. The utilities got turned off for a few days at a time multiple times. We did get some help over the years from the state and from the church, but the welfare help (contrary to what some may think) was pretty meager and way below the amount of money you'd need to not feel like you were still dirt poor. We never ate out, we rarely got new clothes, and health insurance was a luxury we basically never had. Oh yeah, there was theoretically something called medicaid, but at least in those days (the 70s and 80s) it was more or less impossible to find a doctor who would accept it (doctors weren't required to take it), so it only came in handy if you needed to go to the ER. So from personal experience I think I do fully understand the obstacles faced by people to move up the socioeconomic ladder. Whatever work was available to my mom didn't pay enough to help us move into the middle class. As we got older we got jobs to help the family and then the economic situation gradually got better. But we were a happy, supportive family.

The thing we did have going for us is that my mom very much encouraged and pushed us to learn to work hard and to value our education. We all got into BYU, and thanks to federal pell grants we were able to pay for it. And now I'm very solidly part of the upper middle class. It is hard to move up the socioeconomic ladder, but it can still happen. It's far less likely to happen, I'm sure, in homes where kids don't grow up being taught the feeling of hope that working hard and doing well in school will lead to good things in the future.

[frank ryan]

I am probably more sympathetic toward the less privileged than many other libertarian or conservative folks because I actually grew up dirt poor (by US standards) and from a so-called "broken" home. It was my mom with me and my two siblings. We struggled to pay rent and sometimes didn't know where the money would come from to pay the electric bill or buy food. The utilities got turned off for a few days at a time multiple times. We did get some help over the years from the state and from the church, but the welfare help (contrary to what some may think) was pretty meager and way below the amount of money you'd need to not feel like you were still dirt poor. We never ate out, we rarely got new clothes, and health insurance was a luxury we basically never had. Oh yeah, there was theoretically something called medicaid, but at least in those days (the 70s and 80s) it was more or less impossible to find a doctor who would accept it (doctors weren't required to take it), so it only came in handy if you needed to go to the ER. So from personal experience I think I do fully understand the obstacles faced by people to move up the socioeconomic ladder. Whatever work was available to my mom didn't pay enough to help us move into the middle class. As we got older we got jobs to help the family and then the economic situation gradually got better. But we were a happy, supportive family.

The thing we did have going for us is that my mom very much encouraged and pushed us to learn to work hard and to value our education. We all got into BYU, and thanks to federal pell grants we were able to pay for it. And now I'm very solidly part of the upper middle class. It is hard to move up the socioeconomic ladder, but it can still happen. It's far less likely to happen, I'm sure, in homes where kids don't grow up being taught the feeling of hope that working hard and doing well in school will lead to good things in the future.

It is pretty much impossible to live off of "welfare." Additionally, welfare reform ensures that one can't sit on their ass and just collect a check. When it comes to social programs those who have never needed seem to have little knowledge of how they actually work.

[Topper]

I am probably more sympathetic toward the less privileged than many other libertarian or conservative folks because I actually grew up dirt poor (by US standards) and from a so-called "broken" home. It was my mom with me and my two siblings. We struggled to pay rent and sometimes didn't know where the money would come from to pay the electric bill or buy food. The utilities got turned off for a few days at a time multiple times. We did get some help over the years from the state and from the church, but the welfare help (contrary to what some may think) was pretty meager and way below the amount of money you'd need to not feel like you were still dirt poor. We never ate out, we rarely got new clothes, and health insurance was a luxury we basically never had. Oh yeah, there was theoretically something called medicaid, but at least in those days (the 70s and 80s) it was more or less impossible to find a doctor who would accept it (doctors weren't required to take it), so it only came in handy if you needed to go to the ER. So from personal experience I think I do fully understand the obstacles faced by people to move up the socioeconomic ladder. Whatever work was available to my mom didn't pay enough to help us move into the middle class. As we got older we got jobs to help the family and then the economic situation gradually got better. But we were a happy, supportive family.

The thing we did have going for us is that my mom very much encouraged and pushed us to learn to work hard and to value our education. We all got into BYU, and thanks to federal pell grants we were able to pay for it. And now I'm very solidly part of the upper middle class. It is hard to move up the socioeconomic ladder, but it can still happen. It's far less likely to happen, I'm sure, in homes where kids don't grow up being taught the feeling of hope that working hard and doing well in school will lead to good things in the future.

That is a great share.

I am sympathetic and desire for our country to create means of economic mobility. Although I have always been part of the middle class, my father showed me respect for those less fortunate. Our system needs to be efficient and create means for enabling income and economic mobility. Creating swaths of plutarchs is not beneficial to the economy at large, but the objective of the economy should be to promote the public good and the good of those who are willing to work and to contribute.

The markets are more efficient at doing that if barriers to entry are knocked down, competition is ensured, education is available for free up through the end of high school and inexpensively beyond, and capital is reasonably available for small, medium as well as large enterprises. That creates a vibrant economy benefiting most of us.

The welfare system needs improvement to discourage sitting back and to getting out of the dire circumstances some find themselves in. You are correct Medicaid qualification requires a person to be more indigent that can be imagined. A person must either be near bankruptcy or dishonest. It is a difficult problem to fix and expensive. Obviously no sane person wants children or mothers to go without no matter their circumstances. The system can and should be improved so people don't simply go the ER route. There are monies which should be devoted to public health without trashing the current benefits of the market system. Nobody is looking at it universally, let alone system by system.

Stories like yours keep me motivated to try to find solutions to at least some of the shortcomings.

[Crockett]

It is not true that the blue ribbon plutarchs use money in a fashion that "trickles" down. The plutarchs keep it in the family.

[myboynoah]

I am probably more sympathetic toward the less privileged than many other libertarian or conservative folks because I actually grew up dirt poor (by US standards) and from a so-called "broken" home. It was my mom with me and my two siblings. We struggled to pay rent and sometimes didn't know where the money would come from to pay the electric bill or buy food. The utilities got turned off for a few days at a time multiple times. We did get some help over the years from the state and from the church, but the welfare help (contrary to what some may think) was pretty meager and way below the amount of money you'd need to not feel like you were still dirt poor. We never ate out, we rarely got new clothes, and health insurance was a luxury we basically never had. Oh yeah, there was theoretically something called medicaid, but at least in those days (the 70s and 80s) it was more or less impossible to find a doctor who would accept it (doctors weren't required to take it), so it only came in handy if you needed to go to the ER. So from personal experience I think I do fully understand the obstacles faced by people to move up the socioeconomic ladder. Whatever work was available to my mom didn't pay enough to help us move into the middle class. As we got older we got jobs to help the family and then the economic situation gradually got better. But we were a happy, supportive family.

The thing we did have going for us is that my mom very much encouraged and pushed us to learn to work hard and to value our education. We all got into BYU, and thanks to federal pell grants we were able to pay for it. And now I'm very solidly part of the upper middle class. It is hard to move up the socioeconomic ladder, but it can still happen. It's far less likely to happen, I'm sure, in homes where kids don't grow up being taught the feeling of hope that working hard and doing well in school will lead to good things in the future.

Great story. What you describe actually seems pretty simple and not that difficult at all. Live fiscally responsibly, get a college education, and work hard. Will one become Mitt Romney rich? Maybe, but unlikely. But upper middle class is easily within reach.

[CardiacCoug]

Great story. What you describe actually seems pretty simple and not that difficult at all. Live fiscally responsibly, get a college education, and work hard. Will one become Mitt Romney rich? Maybe, but unlikely. But upper middle class is easily within reach.

Sure to people on this board it was easy -- just get good grades and go to college and graduate school. No big deal.

We're probably not the right ones to decide how easy it is to climb the socioeconomic ladder.

[byu71]

That really is his answer. The wealthy will pay for it. I believe those were his exact words with respect to, for example, how he would make college free for everybody.

Just hard to believe he has such an avid following for his programs, even bringing Hillary along and he can get away with an answer like, the wealthy will pay for it. His supporters don't care how he is going to get the money from the wealthy? No one asks what the effect would have on the overall economy. It is as simple as, I will give you all these things and we will get it from the wealthy people?

[Topper]

Sure to people on this board it was easy -- just get good grades and go to college and graduate school. No big deal.

We're probably not the right ones to decide how easy it is to climb the socioeconomic ladder.

I am glad I didn't have to do that, though I have been witness to some who have done so. BlueK and those who strive as he had to, deserve our respect. Growing up middle class was not a challenge but a blessing and a privilege. Fortunately, I had examples of working hard and seeking education, but I don't deserve credit for following a good example. I hope we can find better ways to make it possible for those like BlueK and his family to continue to succeed.