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The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

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  • Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    We're probably not the right ones to decide how easy it is to climb the socioeconomic ladder.
    Neither are we the right people to decide how difficult it is. It's certainly easier to climb if you come from the middle class, but it's possible from anyplace if one has a good work ethic. In the years have traveled, I have talked with a lot of people all over the country. Here are a few of their stories:

    A Kenyan in Reno earned a masters in wildlife biology after emigrating here with less than $100. He drives cab because it makes him a better living than any biologist job he can get. A Somali immigrant is shining shoes in the Denver Airport, putting himself through the last year of an engineering degree because the degree he earned in Africa isn't recognized here. It took him 5 years to get him and his family here. Both of these guys (and every other immigrant I talk too, without exception) think America is the greatest country in the world, and it's easier to get ahead here than any other country. The most inspiring person I talked to was a shoe shine in St. Louis who lives in Ferguson. His father left when he was twelve, so he dropped out of school and learned to shine shoes. As a shoe shine, he helped support his family and paid for both his sisters to go to college. Now he has two kids of his own, one an engineer, and one in her last year of law school at Georgetown, and he has done it all by sacrificing, saving, and shining a hell of a lot of shoes (shiniest my boots have ever been, incidentally). I could go on, but my point is that there are a lot of people who have climbed the ladder out of poverty.

    One of the largest farmers in the valley is a man whose grandfather came here from Mexico illegally to work in the sugarbeet fields. His son began working as a sharecropper, and now his grandson has built the farm into a 10,000 irrigated acre operation. This is probably the best argument for eliminating, or at least limiting, the estate tax. The current farmer would never have been able to build his place had he been forced to pay $1,000,000 to the IRS upon his father's death.

    One of the best middle class to riches story is Michael Rubin, co-owner of the 76ers and one of the country's richest men, with a net worth of $2.7 billion. He turned a $17,000 loan from a friend into $75,000, and in 20 years grew one of the most successful businesses in the country. He also happens to live with one of Manhattan's most beautiful women.

    America is replete with these kinds of stories. True, not everyone can get rich, but most everyone can get ahead if they work hard, and they can certainly help their posterity ahead on the socioeconomic ladder if both they and their posterity are determined to do so. Wealth is a different story, and involves the addition of risk, which not everyone is comfortable with, but wealth is also achievable, especially if it is a multi-generational effort.

    To me, the bigger question is how taking money from the rich will help the poor get ahead. Aside from education, I can't think of a way that reallocating the capital of the wealthy will effect this change. That's the thing about wealth - it doesn't just sit. It is invested, and it becomes capital that is used to build business. The competition for that capital is what makes its allocation effective. It goes to the enterprise that has the greatest probability for growth and jobs. Taking that competition away and re-allocating wealth to those in need, may help the poor in the short run, but it comes at a cost of reducing the number of available high-paying jobs, which is what the poor need in the long run. As a caveat, I firmly hold to the notion of Friedman that the one thing government does right is fund education, as an educated society is more likely to be a productive and wealthy society.
    sigpic
    "Outlined against a blue, gray
    October sky the Four Horsemen rode again"
    Grantland Rice, 1924

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    • Originally posted by cowboy View Post

      To me, the bigger question is how taking money from the rich will help the poor get ahead. Aside from education, I can't think of a way that reallocating the capital of the wealthy will effect this change. That's the thing about wealth - it doesn't just sit. It is invested, and it becomes capital that is used to build business. The competition for that capital is what makes its allocation effective. It goes to the enterprise that has the greatest probability for growth and jobs. Taking that competition away and re-allocating wealth to those in need, may help the poor in the short run, but it comes at a cost of reducing the number of available high-paying jobs, which is what the poor need in the long run. As a caveat, I firmly hold to the notion of Friedman that the one thing government does right is fund education, as an educated society is more likely to be a productive and wealthy society.
      Good stories and ones that are possible in very few countries outside of the USA.

      You could take all the wealth in the US, divide it out equally and within 40 years we would be complaining about wealth inequality again. Not to mention initially we would have an economic disaster.

      Comment


      • I listened to a radio program the other day about a guy who went to court for $700 in unpaid traffic fines. He couldn't pay so the judge sent him to jail. But he was on some kind of meds and he and his family kept asking the jail to provide it to him, but they didn't. He ended up dying after a few weeks.

        I don't know what the solution is, but we do some pretty shitty things to poor people in this country.
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
          Sure to people on this board it was easy -- just get good grades and go to college and graduate school. No big deal.

          We're probably not the right ones to decide how easy it is to climb the socioeconomic ladder.
          This is 100% correct. I'm sure a lot of us here have similar stories to BlueK's, or at least have improved our economic situations with hard work. But we are not representative at all of the problem of poor in America. There are significant cultural/racial hurdles for a lot of poor people, and although hard work certainly helps many get out of poverty, it doesn't overcome all the issues they face.

          I talked about this podcast in the other thread. It's been awhile, but I remember it talking about a couple of inner city kids who got great college scholarships. Despite being very smart, at least one of them dropped out due to cultural pressures. It's eye-opening and kind of depressing:

          http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...50/three-miles
          "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
          "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
          - SeattleUte

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
            I listened to a radio program the other day about a guy who went to court for $700 in unpaid traffic fines. He couldn't pay so the judge sent him to jail. But he was on some kind of meds and he and his family kept asking the jail to provide it to him, but they didn't. He ended up dying after a few weeks.

            I don't know what the solution is, but we do some pretty shitty things to poor people in this country.
            Do you think providing meds differs from jail to jail? I know of a particular jail where if you need meds you would probably rather be there than on your own. Especially if you are an undocumented because they come under federal and not state guidelines.

            Mistakes happen, even to rich peoople. However, I will concede it probably happens to poor people more often than rich.
            I don't know how to fix it either, but I doubt taxing the heck out of the rich is a solution.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
              I talked about this podcast in the other thread. It's been awhile, but I remember it talking about a couple of inner city kids who got great college scholarships. Despite being very smart, at least one of them dropped out due to cultural pressures.
              I saw this firsthand in Detroit. Several smart young people who received assistance froma variety of sources, and most of them didn't get far. One young sister went on a mission and made it to BYU-I.
              "Sure, I fought. I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."

              - Ty Cobb

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                This is 100% correct. I'm sure a lot of us here have similar stories to BlueK's, or at least have improved our economic situations with hard work. But we are not representative at all of the problem of poor in America. There are significant cultural/racial hurdles for a lot of poor people, and although hard work certainly helps many get out of poverty, it doesn't overcome all the issues they face.

                I talked about this podcast in the other thread. It's been awhile, but I remember it talking about a couple of inner city kids who got great college scholarships. Despite being very smart, at least one of them dropped out due to cultural pressures. It's eye-opening and kind of depressing:

                http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...50/three-miles
                Also a stumbling block to climbing the latter is not wanting to pay the price. That's OK, there are trade off's.

                I have heard things such as. I prefer to spend more time with my family. I don't want to go on commissions only, I want a steady income. I don't want to sell my home to invest in a start up company with you.

                Ask any CPA who starts out with a major CPA firm. It is survival mode to get to the top. At least it was back when I started. Seriously we were told the firm comes first above anything. 80 hours weeks during busy season was common.

                So those who chase after things should be punished for what they choose as a priority?

                I work a lot less now and my income is not growing. Others in the office are busting their butt trying to grow their business. Can I go to management and ask for part of their action to equal things out.

                I guess I am like democrats though. If management came to me and said they would give me part of the other co-workers income, I would vote for that management. I could leave the office even earlier than now.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                  Also a stumbling block to climbing the latter is not wanting to pay the price. That's OK, there are trade off's.

                  I have heard things such as. I prefer to spend more time with my family. I don't want to go on commissions only, I want a steady income. I don't want to sell my home to invest in a start up company with you.

                  Ask any CPA who starts out with a major CPA firm. It is survival mode to get to the top. At least it was back when I started. Seriously we were told the firm comes first above anything. 80 hours weeks during busy season was common.

                  So those who chase after things should be punished for what they choose as a priority?

                  I work a lot less now and my income is not growing. Others in the office are busting their butt trying to grow their business. Can I go to management and ask for part of their action to equal things out.

                  I guess I am like democrats though. If management came to me and said they would give me part of the other co-workers income, I would vote for that management. I could leave the office even earlier than now.
                  I'm always enetrtained by 71's posts about his work. I can't recall any other poster who sounds so affluent and dejected at the same time. It's like he's a member of a country club, only a really crappy one.
                  "Sure, I fought. I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."

                  - Ty Cobb

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by San Juan Sun View Post
                    I'm always enetrtained by 71's posts about his work. I can't recall any other poster who sounds so affluent and dejected at the same time. It's like he's a member of a country club, only a really crappy one.
                    You hit it on the head with a great observation. I only sound affluent, but I am a struggling middle class person.

                    I do belong to a crappy country club, just ask old-gregg.

                    However, I do feel rich and blessed because of all the wonderful people I associate with on here.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                      You hit it on the head with a great observation. I only sound affluent, but I am a struggling middle class person.

                      I do belong to a crappy country club, just ask old-gregg.

                      However, I do feel rich and blessed because of all the wonderful people I associate with on here.
                      "Sure, I fought. I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."

                      - Ty Cobb

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                        Also a stumbling block to climbing the latter is not wanting to pay the price. That's OK, there are trade off's.

                        I have heard things such as. I prefer to spend more time with my family. I don't want to go on commissions only, I want a steady income. I don't want to sell my home to invest in a start up company with you.

                        Ask any CPA who starts out with a major CPA firm. It is survival mode to get to the top. At least it was back when I started. Seriously we were told the firm comes first above anything. 80 hours weeks during busy season was common.

                        So those who chase after things should be punished for what they choose as a priority?

                        I work a lot less now and my income is not growing. Others in the office are busting their butt trying to grow their business. Can I go to management and ask for part of their action to equal things out.

                        I guess I am like democrats though. If management came to me and said they would give me part of the other co-workers income, I would vote for that management. I could leave the office even earlier than now.
                        Your 'busting your butt' and hammer works for a lot of nails. But there are quite a few people who will never have the chance to become a CPA. Even if the dreaded democrats have their way.

                        Originally posted by San Juan Sun View Post
                        I'm always enetrtained by 71's posts about his work. I can't recall any other poster who sounds so affluent and dejected at the same time. It's like he's a member of a country club, only a really crappy one.
                        LOL. He keeps telling the poor to just work harder and reject the democrats. You'd think he'd want to keep his country club as affluent as possible and keep those people out!
                        "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                        "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                        - SeattleUte

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                          Do you think providing meds differs from jail to jail? I know of a particular jail where if you need meds you would probably rather be there than on your own. Especially if you are an undocumented because they come under federal and not state guidelines.
                          Yeah, I imagine the meds differ from jail to jail, but any jail is a hellish place where lots of horrible things can happen. You or I get slapped with a $700 fine and we pay it and life goes on. This guy ended up dying because he couldn't pay the fine. The fact of the matter is that poor folks have a much lower margin of error than the rest of us and they have fewer opportunities. Yes, hard work and initiative make a huge difference. But let's not pretend for a second that those are the only things separating the rich from the poor.

                          Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                          Mistakes happen, even to rich peoople. However, I will concede it probably happens to poor people more often than rich.
                          I don't know how to fix it either, but I doubt taxing the heck out of the rich is a solution.
                          I think the vast majority of Americans support some kind of scaled (progressive) tax rates. It comes down to a matter of arguing about the structure of that scale.
                          "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                          "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                          "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                            Your 'busting your butt' and hammer works for a lot of nails. But there are quite a few people who will never have the chance to become a CPA. Even if the dreaded democrats have their way.



                            LOL. He keeps telling the poor to just work harder and reject the democrats. You'd think he'd want to keep his country club as affluent as possible and keep those people out!
                            I have a great friend out there who happens to be black. Just got elected to the Board of Directors. The trouble with you liberals is you just feast on stereotypes and name calling.

                            I don't know if he is a democrat or republican because it doesn't matter.

                            Lastly, you totally deny most people get ahead financially because they want it more and are willing to make the sacrifices that it takes?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                              I think the vast majority of Americans support some kind of scaled (progressive) tax rates. It comes down to a matter of arguing about the structure of that scale.
                              Agree. I actually agree with Trump and most republican establishment types. Carried interest (loophole for hedge funds) is a joke and they should get hit at ordinary income rates.

                              Why aren't the democrats speaking out on the issue? One reason is heading off to a hedge fund for a year or two can really set them up. Ask Chelsey Clinton and Rohm Immanuel. Tell me what investment expertise do those two have?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                                I have a great friend out there who happens to be black. Just got elected to the Board of Directors. The trouble with you liberals is you just feast on stereotypes and name calling.

                                I don't know if he is a democrat or republican because it doesn't matter.

                                Lastly, you totally deny most people get ahead financially because they want it more and are willing to make the sacrifices that it takes?
                                You're great, '71. Keep on keeping on.
                                "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                                "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                                - SeattleUte

                                Comment

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