My 9/11 concerns

[falafel]

I've realized that this forum is not the place to change my mind. I tried to come at this in a way that would allow for such to happen, but from the get go too many people attacked me as disingenuous. I wouldn't expect any of you to change your minds if I kept calling you names, and I can't expect any better of me. My defenses are up, not because you've tactfully dismantled the arguments I've bought into, but because you have actually attacked my character and my intelligence over and over again. I won't be changing my mind today, that is just unavoidable. If one of you wanted to pm me and work me through my concerns in a respectful way, I doubt I wouldn't come to think as you all do, but this forum doesn't allow for me to be dealt with in a way that would allow me to keep my mind open for long enough to change and I have to recognize that.

I shouldn't have brought it up.

C'mon, man. Don't end it like that. I think you just need to change your approach.

This entire debacle could have been avoided by you just stating clearly and concisely what it is you believe, which would allow those on here with knowledge to point out any flaws or errors in your belief. That's what you wanted in the first place, wasn't it? You just started the thread off on the wrong foot. Scrap this one and take another stab at it.

On another note, I'm also interested in hearing your international banking family theory.

[taekwondave]

But to answer Live Coug's question, which I think is a fair one, regarding why I believe this theory and not others: I don't consciously choose what to believe. Either something makes sense to me and I see enough evidence for it to sway me or I don't. My conviction of something comes to me the same way it comes to anybody. The weighing of likelihoods, the examination of evidence, the apparent presence or lack of presence of plausible motive, etc. When enough things stack up that I haven't been able to refute on my own I believe it as possible. Until further information proves me otherwise I don't have a choice in the matter. Nobody does. If I could choose what to believe I'd still be a hard line Mormon, rather than the kind that I am today. I liked thinking the old guys in the suits had all the right answers. Unfortunately I no longer think they do.

[DU Ute]

I've realized that this forum is not the place to change my mind. I tried to come at this in a way that would allow for such to happen, but from the get go too many people attacked me as disingenuous. I wouldn't expect any of you to change your minds if I kept calling you names, and I can't expect any better of me. My defenses are up, not because you've tactfully dismantled the arguments I've bought into, but because you have actually attacked my character and my intelligence over and over again. I won't be changing my mind today, that is just unavoidable. If one of you wanted to pm me and work me through my concerns in a respectful way, I doubt I wouldn't come to think as you all do, but this forum doesn't allow for me to be dealt with in a way that would allow me to keep my mind open for long enough to change and I have to recognize that.

I shouldn't have brought it up.

Don't let them get you down, TKD!! This web site will answer all your questions. Read it over and get back with us, thanks:

http://www.stewwebb.com/

[wuapinmon]

I've realized that this forum is not the place to change my mind. I tried to come at this in a way that would allow for such to happen, but from the get go too many people attacked me as disingenuous. I wouldn't expect any of you to change your minds if I kept calling you names, and I can't expect any better of me. My defenses are up, not because you've tactfully dismantled the arguments I've bought into, but because you have actually attacked my character and my intelligence over and over again. I won't be changing my mind today, that is just unavoidable. If one of you wanted to pm me and work me through my concerns in a respectful way, I doubt I wouldn't come to think as you all do, but this forum doesn't allow for me to be dealt with in a way that would allow me to keep my mind open for long enough to change and I have to recognize that.

I shouldn't have brought it up.

Straight up, what did you hope to learn about here? If it were dynamite, the place would just fall apart. Strange, where were you when we started this thing? I think the real cause should just stop baffling you. But, please don't change, the only thing that seems to work at all is you.

Stick around, kid. I think you're awesome.

[Flystripper]

If you study the history of conspiracy theories, one of the most fascinating parts is the psychology of conspiracy theorists. Experts say that when something like 9/11 (JFK, Pearl Harbor, etc.) happens, it is disturbing to us (subconsciously at least) that a small group of people could cause so much havoc. Our minds want to believe that it was part of a larger, orchestrated effort, so we are drawn to these theories. Furthermore, exploring conspiracy theories makes us think that we are doing something to correct the wrong by getting to the bottom of things and exposing new information. It also feeds our ego because we believe that we are smarter than the average person that has been duped by the conspiracy. We are part of an elect group of people who are able to figure things out.

Should we have this conversation in the forum.....again?

[taekwondave]

Most people were civil. I think the main problem is frustration in not really understanding what you are really thinking. This thread has gone on for pages and I still have absolutely no real idea what you believe. Think about what got you to your current world view and why. That's all I ask. I know it was a pretty drastic change, but why? What was it that brought your emotions so high that you are now in a camp that believes something that 99.9% of the world does not? And because of this belief, you are troubled by your views.

The problem is, you have gone into your new view with such passionate vigor, that all else has been clouded. Glad you are asking for help to change your negative views, but you really need to find what wall you built up to block out the logic and try to tear that down before you can be convinced that there is no major conspiracy...

Most people may have been civil, but if they don't help me fight off those who aren't, then my defenses will be up too high to address anyone logically. The same would be true for you.

[LiveCoug]

If you study the history of conspiracy theories, one of the most fascinating parts is the psychology of conspiracy theorists. Experts say that when something like 9/11 (JFK, Pearl Harbor, etc.) happens, it is disturbing to us (subconsciously at least) that a small group of people could cause so much havoc. Our minds want to believe that it was part of a larger, orchestrated effort, so we are drawn to these theories. Furthermore, exploring conspiracy theories makes us think that we are doing something to correct the wrong by getting to the bottom of things and exposing new information. It also feeds our ego because we believe that we are smarter than the average person that has been duped by the conspiracy. We are part of an elect group of people who are able to figure things out.

Agreed. And that's why some conspiracies resonate with some and other conspiracies are pure bunk to that same seemingly rational person.

[Jeff Lebowski]

TKD, you have taken a beating here and I am guilty of part of that beating so I am sorry if I was too hard on you. That being said, going back and deleting all of your posts in the thread is just about the most chickenshit thing you can do in a case like this. I, for one, can't imagine ever making the effort to debate you in the future if you are likely to simply erase your entire part of the conversation once the going gets rough.

[NorthwestUteFan]

First off, I am sorry you have been attacked in some ways. Sometimes the rhetoric can feel a bit too personal.

You're making some broad generalizations and neglecting a key component of the overall theory itself. You're assuming that people in government work on different sides. Naturally, if the world is the way they portray it on the news, then if some Republican guy was involved in planning and carrying out 9/11, there is no way that he'd be able to conceal it from all the democrats surrounding him. You'd think from the way it's portrayed on tv that these guys would hire spies to follow each other around or something. But according to the world view or the theory, both parties are bought and paid for by the same financial interests. And since nobody in office can get into office without the support of said financial interests, they are clearly on the hook to them while in office. You don't turn around and bite the hand that feeds you.

You are talking about 535 (+ 3 for DC + 1 president) elected people, who would require said money to get reelected. That elected officials have used 9/11 to their own political benefit is not surprising.

I am talking about tens of thousands of bureaucrats and employees of the agencies involved who are unelected and who would be in a position to "rat" out others while in the process of climbing the career ladder. Every one of them will (and SHOULD) look out for #1 when career opportunities arise.

I am talking about everybody in the buildings and on the ground who witnessed the planes hit the towers. I am talking about the family members who lost people on the planes. I am talking about people who lost family members on the ground.

At some point ONE of them would speak up and break the entire thing to pieces.

We engineers can help with any of the "planes didn't knock down the buildings" questions. I suggest you look at RobinFinderson's post, and realize that he is about as far from a Republican as you will find on this site. Read it, compare with the PM article, and ask questions about the specifics.

Basically it's what's called the left-right paradigm. It's a soap opera. It's pure drama intended to deflect attention onto things that are less important. As the famed conspiracy theorist and former somehow governor of Minnesota has said, "Politics is exactly like pro wrestling. In front of the cameras we all hate each other, democrats and republicans. But when the camera is off and the doors are closed, we all go to the same parties and we all work for the same people" or something close to that.

That Orrin Hatch is best buds with Patrick Leahy and (before he died) Ted Kennedy, despite being viciously opposed to their policies, it very telling. American politicians usually are gentlemanly enough to keep their personal beliefs and feelings for their "opponents" completely out of the debate.

You are wise to be wary of the government. I also greatly dislike the Red Sox vs. Yankees method of modern political reporting. But at the same time one needs to learn to trust them at some point and on some things.

(A serious suggestion, not being facetious: ) If you have a hard time trusting Fox News, MSNBC, or CNN, try listening to Russia Today or BBC for a slightly different viewpoint. All viewpoints deserve scrutiny.

[taekwondave]

The problem is, you have gone into your new view with such passionate vigor, that all else has been clouded. Glad you are asking for help to change your negative views, but you really need to find what wall you built up to block out the logic and try to tear that down before you can be convinced that there is no major conspiracy...

No, the problem is you are trying to tell me what my problem is rather than hearing what I'm saying my problem is. I came into this conversation without ANY passion or vigor and a very open mind, I can't take on everybody attacking me at once, calling me disingenuous and a liar, crazy, nutjob looking for black helicopters and expect to have any kind of rationality remain with me. It just isn't reasonable to expect that from me.

If you guys want to straighten me out, pm me. The forum won't be changing my mind today.

[Flystripper]

TKD, you have taken a beating here and I am guilty of part of that beating so I am sorry if I was too hard on you. That being said, going back and deleting all of your posts in the thread is just about the most chickenshit thing you can do in a case like this. I, for one, can't imagine ever making the effort to debate you in the future if you are likely to simply erase your entire part of the conversation once the going gets rough.

thank goodness for the quoting feature! I will continue to overuse it for precautionary purposes...thank you very much!

[Coach McGuirk]

TKD, you have taken a beating here and I am guilty of part of that beating so I am sorry if I was too hard on you. That being said, going back and deleting all of your posts in the thread is just about the most chickenshit thing you can do in a case like this. I, for one, can't imagine ever making the effort to debate you in the future if you are likely to simply erase your entire part of the conversation once the going gets rough.

the good news is most of the posts are quoted. He can't touch those. Must be a conspiracy.

[Portland Ute]

I've realized that this forum is not the place to change my mind. I tried to come at this in a way that would allow for such to happen, but from the get go too many people attacked me as disingenuous. I wouldn't expect any of you to change your minds if I kept calling you names, and I can't expect any better of me. My defenses are up, not because you've tactfully dismantled the arguments I've bought into, but because you have actually attacked my character and my intelligence over and over again. I won't be changing my mind today, that is just unavoidable. If one of you wanted to pm me and work me through my concerns in a respectful way, I doubt I wouldn't come to think as you all do, but this forum doesn't allow for me to be dealt with in a way that would allow me to keep my mind open for long enough to change and I have to recognize that.

I shouldn't have brought it up.

[1337coug]

I had some fun with these conspiracy theories back in the day. The only thing that will convince you one way or another is looking at the sources of information. The only people presenting an argument to disprove your view is popular mechanics. Your sources of information have done everything they can to convince you that popular mechanics is a dishonest publication, and they have reason to lie about their information. Popular mechanics has been published for over 100 years. What kind of background do your sources have? The more you look into that, the less credible they will become.
These sources want you to question what happened because they want you to visit their sites to give them advertising dollars. They want you to support their movies. They want you to buy their books. They are the ones with the money motivation, not the politicians who they claim set up 9/11.

[NorthwestUteFan]

going back and deleting all of your posts in the thread is just about the most chickenshit thing you can do in a case like this.

I am guilty of doing that once before, but at the time I was worried I had posted something that would get me in serious trouble.

tkd, please list a few specific thoughts or concerns. We can debate and agree, disprove them, or leave them on the table.

Believe me, most of the people here would gladly pat you on the back and buy you a beer (Root, or otherwise) were we to meet in person.